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Is this the End of NGC??
Halfhunter06
Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
This is an appendix to the thread i created last week regarding the Baltimore Show.
We now live in bad economic times and the coin industry has been rapidly changing to adapt. NGC has introduced a new holder, PCGS has lowered thier club memberships and expanded thier "geniune" service to end all body bags and so on. What I have witnessed recently is a large turn off from NGC coins. PCGS dominated the floor at the recent show, dealers were placing much more attention to PCGS, and NGC coins seemed to have been looking upon the same way many look upon ANACS and ICG. I guess this is added by the fact that 3 of my NGC coins which i submitted to PCGS came back in the NGC holders. I feel as if the company's standards are not on par with PCGS (copper and nickels for example: NGC 67 is PCGS 66) and on the market they are losing credibility. Does anyone else feel the same way as me??
For the record NGC graders are OUTSTANDING people and they know thier content, its the market that has driven more towards PCGS and when you buy expensive coins, you expect to get the service you pay for.
We now live in bad economic times and the coin industry has been rapidly changing to adapt. NGC has introduced a new holder, PCGS has lowered thier club memberships and expanded thier "geniune" service to end all body bags and so on. What I have witnessed recently is a large turn off from NGC coins. PCGS dominated the floor at the recent show, dealers were placing much more attention to PCGS, and NGC coins seemed to have been looking upon the same way many look upon ANACS and ICG. I guess this is added by the fact that 3 of my NGC coins which i submitted to PCGS came back in the NGC holders. I feel as if the company's standards are not on par with PCGS (copper and nickels for example: NGC 67 is PCGS 66) and on the market they are losing credibility. Does anyone else feel the same way as me??
For the record NGC graders are OUTSTANDING people and they know thier content, its the market that has driven more towards PCGS and when you buy expensive coins, you expect to get the service you pay for.
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While I do think PCGS and NGC have slightly different grading standards for my favorite series (Morgans), I have been astounded at how many same-grade crossovers I've had this year. Just off the top of my head I'd say it's over 75%. My ANACS crossover percentage has been much higher too. My coin buddies tell me they've seen the same thing.
I don't.
NGC's standards are different than PCGS, of this I'm fairly convinced. However, on some series and grades NGC is tougher than PCGS, and on others the opposite is true.
However, I believe it is their differences that keep them both in business (competition is a good thing, IMO).
Bottom line: Really good coins sell for strong money regardless of which holder they are in*.
Respectfully....Mike
* [edited to add] with the exception of certain modern markets.
some people just prefer high numbers on their plastic regagardless of the coin inside
sorry pal, but you've got your reasoning in the opposite direction. NGC is enjoying more business than PCGS, as world coin submissions is booming and everything else is stalled. Heck, PCGS's recent earnings conference call said that the ONLY increase in business is their world coin submissions, which are up 77%. NGC already has a virtual monopoly in grading world coins, as over 80% of the six and seven figure world coins are in NGC holders, to include a huge percentage of five figure coins. Couple this with the relatively large and untapped market that NGC just opened up for grading Ancients, and you've got a win-win scenario. NGC has already graded numerous six figure Ancients, to include a world record example that sold recently for nearly a million bucks. Also, NGC enjoys a much more diverse range of grading: US coins, world coins, medals, Ancients and so-called dollars. PCGS only grades US coins, which are slipping badly, and world coins, which they lag far behind in.
The new holders were in response to many oversease world coin collectors and dealers, that were frustrated because the old holders obscured the coin edge. Overseas collectors and dealers are usually much more conservative in grading than we in the US are, and they consider the edge a "third side", as opoosed to us in the US that pay it little regard aside from checking for nasty dings. It was a good move on their part, and will continue to pay dividends.
If PCGS were on top of the game, answer me this question: why would the stock be down nearly 80%, they are laying off graders, and they are attending coin shows in Beijing introducing PCGS slabs printed in Mandarin Chinese? The answer is simple: grading of US coins as it stands now has reached it's maturity peak, and the sure way to gain brand new revenue is to go overseas and try to pull some market share away from NGC.
The way it stands now, some coins are worth far more in NGC holders, while some are worth much more in PCGS holders.
The key is to know your coins to maximize your collection and/or returns.
NGC will be gone by tomorrow at 1PM and immediately afterwards all those that own NGC holders will promptly throw them into the trash....coin and all.
I do not know of any. Please enlighten me. I have never collected a series in which NGC was the tougher grader. On an individual coin? Of course. Across the entire spectrum of coins in a series? No.
I will say that there are some problems that PCGS is more tolerant of than NGC such that a group of coins that bag at NGC may get slabbed at PCGS.
Is this the End of NGC??
I don't think so. NGC will adjust their business model to compete with PCGS, who recently adjusted their model to compete with NGC, who previously adjusted their...
Once again buy the coin NOT the holder
Better yet buy RAW if you can find an oldtime collection
BTW I Own PCGS, Oldest ANACS, Old ANACS, Old, Older and Oldest NGC
and GREEN PCI holdered coins
I bought alot of SWEET looking coins years ago based on EYE appeal for a deal
AND will sell at a deal too!
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>However, on some series and grades NGC is tougher than PCGS
I do not know of any. Please enlighten me. I have never collected a series in which NGC was the tougher grader. On an individual coin? Of course. Across the entire spectrum of coins in a series? No.
I will say that there are some problems that PCGS is more tolerant of than NGC such that a group of coins that bag at NGC may get slabbed at PCGS.
>>
I don't disagree with you, but I did say series AND grades. To wit, here are two examples:
#1 - Early copper graded AG-VF. IMO, PCGS is both more liberal in grade and more forgiving of problems (but having to set aside certain "named" NGC collections).
#2 - FBL and FT and most DCAM/UCAM moderns.
To be fair, here are some areas where I think PCGS is tougher overall:
#1 - Classic coin top-pops.
#2 - XF-AU grades on virtually every classic series I pay attention to.
#3 - MS grades for most moderns.
I think it's incumbent upon each collector to learn the differences between each TPG's way of grading within their specialty.
Happy Thanksgiving...Mike
I have not witnessed anything like what you claim, and no one that I know personally has either. To be honest it may be a case of seeing what you want to see, and ignoring the rest of the planet. PCGS hardly ever crosses an NGC coin unless it's in a holder a full grade lower than it should be, it's how they have always been.
The dealers I buy from continue to offer both services, and in fact a couple of sites last week where they had identical graded coins in both holders, the NGC was priced higher. Because the coins were not really identical, just the grade number on the insert. Have another glass of coolaid, then you'll feel better about your coins.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
NGC is a good service.
PCGS is a good service.
ANACs is the best for a wider range of varieties.
Each has it's place. Hopefully they all survive the economy.
Buyer's in general prefer a PCGS grade coin and are willing to pay more for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>However, on some series and grades NGC is tougher than PCGS
I do not know of any. Please enlighten me. I have never collected a series in which NGC was the tougher grader. On an individual coin? Of course. Across the entire spectrum of coins in a series? No.
I will say that there are some problems that PCGS is more tolerant of than NGC such that a group of coins that bag at NGC may get slabbed at PCGS.
Is this the End of NGC??
I don't think so. NGC will adjust their business model to compete with PCGS, who recently adjusted their model to compete with NGC, who previously adjusted their... >>
I will give you an example, I purchased a bust dime raw and submitted 3 x's to pcgs withint 3 months and 2x's to NGC in the same time period. NGC bbed it both times whilce pcgs gave it an MS62 each time. >>
That falls into the "there are some problems that PCGS is more tolerant of than NGC such that a group of coins that bag at NGC may get slabbed at PCGS" and the "On an individual coin? Of course." categories, as I discussed. Do you think that PCGS is looser than NGC across the bust dime series?
Better question: Why did you submit the coin 5 times? Are you a crackout dealer masquerading as a collector?
I think you are painting a small wall with a big brush.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Buyer's in general prefer a PCGS grade coin and are willing to pay more for it. >>
Most of them are Registry collectors, not the average coin collector.
Thanks for the warning.
<< <i>
<< <i>Buyer's in general prefer a PCGS grade coin and are willing to pay more for it. >>
Most of them are Registry collectors, not the average coin collector. >>
average collector or not, his statement is not true. There are still many coins that are worth much more in NGC holders, while the reverse is also true. It depends completely on the type of coins and series.
The coin market is very large, and broad brush strokes aren't valid anymore now (if they ever were)
Hardly. The likes of DGS and IGC and ANACS might find the road ahead tougher than they can manage, but NGC and PCGS will continue on. The Chinese Counterfeiting scare will push more coins to the TPGs and both PCGS and NGC are top shelf.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.