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Brooks Robinson a Hall of Famer? The Jaxxr method...Kingman over Wagner!
Hoopster
Posts: 1,169
in Sports Talk
There has been an evaluative revolution on the CU boards, spearheaded by Jaxxr, and advocated by the likes of Winpitcher.
For a while, I thought I was onto something by using researched based findings, compiled by many very smart people, and with valid data to back it up, and simple logic. However, I may have been mistaken.
When somebody like Winpitcher, whom he himself said about himself, "I am no dummy," made it a point to advocate the cutting edge views of Jaxxr in a park factor thread of which I thought had many strong informational posts, I figured I may have been mistaken in my approach.
This stuff will revolutionize the baseball world, and there is no stopping it now. The only thing missing is that we have to come up with a mantra (hopefully I can have some input in the mantra guys. Please?).
After research under this new technology I am finding new things every day. Just now I found out that Brooks Robinson may not merit being a Hall of Famer. Maybe Vinny Castilla should be instead!!
Take a look how Castilla compares VERY favorably with Robinson in MANY key statistical areas...
Top three seasons in AVG
Castilla .331, .319, .311
Robinson .317, .294, .288
Top three seasons in SLG%
Castilla .589, .564, .548
Robinson .521, .486, .420
Career Batting Average
Castilla .276
Robinson .267
Career SLG%
Castilla .476
Robinson .401
RBI per 162 games for their career
Castilla 97
Robinson 67
Runs Scored per 162 games for their career
Castilla 79
Robinson 69
Most Total bases in a season
Castilla 380
Robinson 319
Total Bases per 162 games for their career
Castilla 284
Robinson 239
Total Hits per 162 games for their career
Castilla 165
Robinson 159
Number of times over 100 RBI
Castilla FIve
Robinson Two
Career OPS
Castilla .797
RObinson .723
Defense?
Too murky to measure, but Castilla had a stronger throwing arm, and I swear by watching him, he got to everything I figured a 3B could get to.
Conclusion? Castilla beats RObinson in the all imortant categories of runs scored and RBI per 162 games! Yes, those are REAL runs produced. Knowing this, the argument stops right there on who the better player was! But when I look at all the contributing stats to a players profile, like OPS, TB, Hits, HR frequency, Castilla also dwarfs Robinson in those as well.
I recognize that we all have different perspectives and such, but there is no denying these overwhelming facts.
Perhaps the Hall of Fame has the wrong third basemen in there. Perhaps these numbers suggest that Vinny Castilla should be a no brainer Hall of Famer. But they certainly suggest that he was a better player than Brooks Robinson!
For a while, I thought I was onto something by using researched based findings, compiled by many very smart people, and with valid data to back it up, and simple logic. However, I may have been mistaken.
When somebody like Winpitcher, whom he himself said about himself, "I am no dummy," made it a point to advocate the cutting edge views of Jaxxr in a park factor thread of which I thought had many strong informational posts, I figured I may have been mistaken in my approach.
This stuff will revolutionize the baseball world, and there is no stopping it now. The only thing missing is that we have to come up with a mantra (hopefully I can have some input in the mantra guys. Please?).
After research under this new technology I am finding new things every day. Just now I found out that Brooks Robinson may not merit being a Hall of Famer. Maybe Vinny Castilla should be instead!!
Take a look how Castilla compares VERY favorably with Robinson in MANY key statistical areas...
Top three seasons in AVG
Castilla .331, .319, .311
Robinson .317, .294, .288
Top three seasons in SLG%
Castilla .589, .564, .548
Robinson .521, .486, .420
Career Batting Average
Castilla .276
Robinson .267
Career SLG%
Castilla .476
Robinson .401
RBI per 162 games for their career
Castilla 97
Robinson 67
Runs Scored per 162 games for their career
Castilla 79
Robinson 69
Most Total bases in a season
Castilla 380
Robinson 319
Total Bases per 162 games for their career
Castilla 284
Robinson 239
Total Hits per 162 games for their career
Castilla 165
Robinson 159
Number of times over 100 RBI
Castilla FIve
Robinson Two
Career OPS
Castilla .797
RObinson .723
Defense?
Too murky to measure, but Castilla had a stronger throwing arm, and I swear by watching him, he got to everything I figured a 3B could get to.
Conclusion? Castilla beats RObinson in the all imortant categories of runs scored and RBI per 162 games! Yes, those are REAL runs produced. Knowing this, the argument stops right there on who the better player was! But when I look at all the contributing stats to a players profile, like OPS, TB, Hits, HR frequency, Castilla also dwarfs Robinson in those as well.
I recognize that we all have different perspectives and such, but there is no denying these overwhelming facts.
Perhaps the Hall of Fame has the wrong third basemen in there. Perhaps these numbers suggest that Vinny Castilla should be a no brainer Hall of Famer. But they certainly suggest that he was a better player than Brooks Robinson!
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Comments
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Defense:
The ability of an outfielder to stop extra base hits is of great importnace. Kingman's long body and long strides go a long way to achieve this. All wagner could prevent are singles!
Winpitcher, as a big advocate, you have to be drooling over the fact that Kingman has a higher number of RBI than Wagner per 162 games for his career. Those are REAL runs too! I feel like part of the group now! This is great.
Yeah, I know they played different positions, but that isn't the point. The point is that Kingman compares very favorably with Wagner in MANY key areas, and even holds some records that Wagner does NOT, and Wagner is a HOFer. Since Kingman compares so favorably in many Key areas with a HOFer, it makes his induction sensible. If you dont belive me, just look at those lists. If you STILL dont belive me, I CAN POST THEM AGAIN FOR YOU!! These are the facts.
PS. In Kingman's stint with the Yankees he had an OPS+ of 208! Had he played his full career there, we are in Ruth Territory. Wagner nver had an OPS+ of 208!!!!
Man, Quis is only a hair away from Walter Johnson too(147).
The bank called today and told me I was behind on my mortgage payment, and I told them that that was THEIR interpretation, and that we all have different levels and ways of looking at things. I think it worked because the guy didn't really know what to say. I left him speechless!
Bosox1976
Steve
Winpitcher, I have found a new meaning to life. This is a great method.
to pick out the few elements that support your case, completely ignore the relevant factors of those said elements, and then totally dismiss all the elements that don't support your case. Then, after those are dismissed, just keep posting them until the other guy looses his cool, and calls a name or gives up.
You been doing that all along.
Funny how you know claim you are copying him.
Steve
I used to use logic. Somebody views RBI as important, but not getting on base? What kind of sense is that? Fred Lynn getting on base for Rice meant high RBI totals for Rice. Rice getting on base is equally as important as that would mean higher RBI total for Yaz or Evans.
I accounted for the important factors to determine such, factors that have been greatly researched and shown to be valid.
Now I am copying Jaxxr because I no longer have to worry about any validity or logic to my comments. I can just say what i want and disregard it.
If you believed the Rice/Murray evaluation method, then Kingman/Wagner is the same thing.
Shut it down hoopter.
Brian
<< <i>I'm so sorry I read this thread. That's minutes in my life I will never get back.
Shut it down hoopter.
Brian >>
Yeah what Brian said!
Brooks Robinson is generally regarded as the best defender ever, at 3B. While possibly debateable, 16 Gold Glove awards account for something, as does a MVP award, something Vinny Castilla, or even Eddie Murray never got.
By popular evaluation for the HOF, all four different methods rate Brooks above Castilla, one, the HOF Monitor has Brooks as qualified, for comparison 3 out of 4 rate Jim Rice and also Eddie Murray as qualified none of four are qualified by all four systems.
Runs produced is merely one of many ways to evaluate a hitter, Robinson averaged 130, Castilla 148, over projected 162 game seasons.
Castilla had only 9 seasons of 140+ games, Brooks had 17, makes the careers a bit different, however gives a big plus to Robinson, who was a virtual injury free "Ironman" when playing baseball.
OPS + is also a popular way, Brooks had a career 104, topping Vinny at 95, neither guy had a league leading season in OPS +, like Jim Rice once did, but neither did Eddie Murray.
Castilla was a neagative force on the basepaths, while neither he, nor Brooks were truly fleet, Vinny was caught stealing more times than he made a steal. A big drawback.
Defense, baserunning, MVP award, WS perfomance, durabilty and time played, all favor Brooks, hitting is close, probably in favor of Castilla, but hey, Dick McAulifff was a better hitting 2B than Maz,
there is way too much in favor of Brooks to remotely compare Castilla in any serious manner.
Your method puts him comparable to Brooks. Here is your method. It is difficult to argue. I know that one always come from a different perspective, and has different opinions.
Top three seasons in AVG
Castilla .331, .319, .311
Robinson .317, .294, .288
Top three seasons in SLG%
Castilla .589, .564, .548
Robinson .521, .486, .420
Career Batting Average
Castilla .276
Robinson .267
Career SLG%
Castilla .476
Robinson .401
RBI per 162 games for their career
Castilla 97
Robinson 67
Runs Scored per 162 games for their career
Castilla 79
Robinson 69
Most Total bases in a season
Castilla 380
Robinson 319
Total Bases per 162 games for their career
Castilla 284
Robinson 239
Total Hits per 162 games for their career
Castilla 165
Robinson 159
Number of times over 100 RBI
Castilla FIve
Robinson Two
Career OPS
Castilla .797
RObinson .723
ROFL !! Jaxxr, your methods are cutting edge! Call the Bosox, they could use you.
These types of silly comparison are capable of coming about when...
1)Park factor is ignored
2) era and run enivornments are ignored
3)The ability to get on base is ignored
4) When you pick and choose certain years to make it look like a guy can compare, but ignore all of the others
5) WHen you ignore the roll of teammates within your lineup, mainly how they drastically affect runs scored and RBI.
6)WHen you ignore the detrimental affect of making an out, or GIDP.
7)WHen you subjectively assign value to a BB, 1B, 2b, 3B, and HR, instead of relying on what they actually have contributed based on the millions of ACTUAl play by play results from MLB.
8)When you fail to account for a players value after his peak, especially when comparing him to somebody who provided zero value after their peak.
Using the pick and choose subjective methods that you have been using, or that are used to make Vinny Castilla look as good as Brooks Robinson, is simply going to give an answer that is about as valid as if hair color were the deciding factor in choosing which player is better.
When you do that method, you get results that can show that Jim Rice was comparable to Murray, that Kingman was to Wagner, that Castilla was to Brooks.
When you consider EVERYTHING, with proper run value, and get bias out of the way, the results end up with much more validity, and these absurd comparisons like Rice/Murray, Kingman/Wagner, Castilla/Brooks, just don't materialize.
Mocking Jaxxt by creating these spoof threads make you seem pompous and petty. You made your point in the Rice/Tenace thread. Let it go, man.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
started in a different thread which you might find interesting.
It was hard not to mock those types of comparisons. The crazy thing is that it took him quite a while to realize what I was doing.
He is a hard guy to figure. This is a guy who's comic posts are impossible to tell apart from his serious ones.