There has been an evaluative revolution on the CU boards, spearheaded by Jaxxr, and advocated by the likes of Winpitcher and THeVon.
For a while, I thought I was onto something by using researched based findings, compiled by many very smart people, and with valid data to back it up, and simple logic. However, I may have been mistaken.
When somebody like Winpitcher, whom he himself said about himself, "I am no dummy," made it a point to advocate the cutting edge views of Jaxxr in a park factor thread of which I thought had many strong informational posts, I figured I may have been mistaken in my approach.
This stuff will revolutionize the baseball world, and there is no stopping it now. The only thing missing is that we have to come up with a mantra (hopefully I can have some input in the mantra guys. Please?).
After research under this new technology I am finding new things every day. Just now I found out that Brooks Robinson may not merit being a Hall of Famer. Maybe Vinny Castilla should be instead!!
Take a look how Castilla compares VERY favorably with Robinson in MANY key statistical areas...
Top three seasons in AVG Castilla .331, .319, .311 Robinson .317, .294, .288
Top three seasons in SLG% Castilla .589, .564, .548 Robinson .521, .486, .420
Career Batting Average Castilla .276 Robinson .267
Career SLG% Castilla .476 Robinson .401
RBI per 162 games for their career Castilla 97 Robinson 67
Runs Scored per 162 games for their career Castilla 79 Robinson 69
Most Total bases in a season Castilla 380 Robinson 319
Total Bases per 162 games for their career Castilla 284 Robinson 239
Total Hits per 162 games for their career Castilla 165 Robinson 159
Number of times over 100 RBI Castilla FIve Robinson Two
Career OPS Castilla .797 RObinson .723
Defense? Too murky to measure, but Castilla had a stronger throwing arm, and I swear by watching him, he got to everything I figured a 3B could get to.
Conclusion? Castilla beats RObinson in the all imortant categories of runs scored and RBI per 162 games! Yes, those are REAL runs produced. Knowing this, the argument stops right there on who the better player was! But when I look at all the contributing stats to a players profile, like OPS, TB, Hits, HR frequency, Castilla also dwarfs Robinson in those as well.
I recognize that we all have different perspectives and such, but there is no denying these overwhelming facts.
Perhaps the Hall of Fame has the wrong third basemen in there. Perhaps these numbers suggest that Vinny Castilla should be a no brainer Hall of Famer. But they certainly suggest that he was a better player than Brooks Robinson!
I am glad you are validating that Castilla was better than Robinson. If it weren't for you fine evaluative method(which I borrowed from you), this revelation would not have been possible. I thank you.
I am sorry you somehow mistakenly, took my expreesion of your right to have your own opinion, to infer I was possibly in agreement with it, which I am not.
Carry on, may God bless you.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Perhaps you didn't read this information, or find it interesting....
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
I am also quite sincere, when I say I am truly sorry you are so emotionally disturbed about alternate opinions by others.
As I thought your comment " Jaxxr, are you retarded " to be very alarming and completely disrespectful of individuals or those with family members, so afflicted, I do have a compassion for those unfortunate enough to have to an illness not merely physical.
The fact that a number of people might feel Rice compares well to Murray in many aspects, should not be taken as a personal affront, simply a failure to convey all your personal contrary views. It is of no major consequence in the more important world of real life. Please try to relax a bit, life's too short to fuss over people with other religions, skin colors, backgrounds, or views on baseball.
Continue to post further comparisons if you wish, but please do not continue to mistakenly infer I might be in agreement with any or all of them. I think your name change from Skinpitch to Hoopster was an admirable attempt to promote a new image, and still may do such.
Carry on, good luck, and may God bless you.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
What is not to agree with? After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas... Just look at the info...it is straight from what I learned from your methods.
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
I am very relaxed now that I have learned your language. THis is great. Life has become much easier now. Thanks. Your Wagner/Kong method may do wonders for big Dave!
The bank called today and told me I was behind on my mortgage payment, and I told them that that was THEIR interpretation, and that we all have different levels and ways of looking at things. I think it worked because the guy didn't really know what to say. I left him speechless!
P.S. Jaxxr, what does RISP mean? I don't understand.
Oh, I get it, but the way you wrote it, shouldn't it be WRISP?
You got it wrong as usual, either you have a serious inability to recall things, or are merely a liar, as evidenced by your heartfelt statement that you are done.
"we already have Rice covered, he is in and is better than Murray, Winfield, Brett, etc..."
I can not reacall any mention of Brett or Winfield, though it is tough to keep up with your multiple personality or multiple postings.
What I actually have said; " Jim Rice is a questionable, marginal, border-line candidate for HOF, as others with somewhat short peaks. He does compare very well with Murray in many aspects. By showing these I do not mean to discredit Murray, merely provide some examples of how Rice is not that much distant to a present HOFer. Depending on your personal evaluation method, he may or may not be worthy."
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
<< <i>He does compare very well with Murray in many aspects. By showing these I do not mean to discredit Murray, merely provide some examples of how Rice is not that much distant to a present HOFer. >>
I still surrender, and I'm not going to make any arguments here. But maybe this will help clear some things up for everybody:
If, as you say, the examples you provided show that Rice compares very well with Murray in many aspects and that they are examples of how Rice is not that much distant from Murray, why then don't the examples that hoopster posted show that Kingman compares very well with Wagner in many aspects and provide examples of how Kingman is not that much distant from Wagner? In other words, what is it about hoopster's Kingman/Wagner analysis that makes it a joke that is not present in your Rice/Murray analysis?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I am not remotely qualified to interpret the expert analysis by Skinpinch/Hoopster, done on Wagner vs Kingman.
As to Jim Rice and Eddie Murray, perhaps the fact they were often All-Star Game teammates and played in a similar era, allowed me to dare compare the two. Maybe because they both were 6' 2" tall, had a great bearing in causing one to examine a majority vote getter, with a current member. Possibly I failed in thinking an MVP award, a Total Base record, and other items, could have any basis for comparison.
Another meaningless, hand-picked, trival, and not park adjusted, I believe, tidbit, similar to RISP stats provided prior, Runners on base ( MOB) BA Rice .305, Murray .300, and SLG % Rice .509, Murray .504
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
What matter does it make in what era they played? It isn't Kingman's fault. A run is a run. He drove them in at a higher rate than Wagner...and those are REAL runs. Any good hitter would adjust to their era and surroundings.
We don't know what they would have done in each's era's, those are just guesses and assumptions. What we do know is that Kingman drove in a higher number of runers per 162 games. Those are REAL runs too!
Jaxxr, Kingman has the total base record over Wagner as well!
Unfortunately neither Kingman nor Wagner won an MVP, but according to baseball reference, Kingman was named on FIVE MVP ballots while Wagner only three! I guess we found another edge for Kingman!
League leading seasons via the critical OPS Rice 1, Murray 0
Hey, that's not park adjusted, of course it is completely meaningless, totally useless without PF. League leading seasons via Park Adjusted OPS + Rice 1, Murray 0
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
jaxxr, you held back some comparisons. I want to see more. It makes the evaluative method you are teaching me much stronger!!! Perhaps you didn't find mine very interesting...
After all, Kingman does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Jim Rice is in the title of this thread, a thread you, yourself started, no need to stray far from the topic with other comparisons.
Might I suggest you start another thread with whomever you see as worthy of comparing, threads started by you are typicaly, warm, open-minded, sensitive, and sincerely welcome differing viewpoints.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Comments
For a while, I thought I was onto something by using researched based findings, compiled by many very smart people, and with valid data to back it up, and simple logic. However, I may have been mistaken.
When somebody like Winpitcher, whom he himself said about himself, "I am no dummy," made it a point to advocate the cutting edge views of Jaxxr in a park factor thread of which I thought had many strong informational posts, I figured I may have been mistaken in my approach.
This stuff will revolutionize the baseball world, and there is no stopping it now. The only thing missing is that we have to come up with a mantra (hopefully I can have some input in the mantra guys. Please?).
After research under this new technology I am finding new things every day. Just now I found out that Brooks Robinson may not merit being a Hall of Famer. Maybe Vinny Castilla should be instead!!
Take a look how Castilla compares VERY favorably with Robinson in MANY key statistical areas...
Top three seasons in AVG
Castilla .331, .319, .311
Robinson .317, .294, .288
Top three seasons in SLG%
Castilla .589, .564, .548
Robinson .521, .486, .420
Career Batting Average
Castilla .276
Robinson .267
Career SLG%
Castilla .476
Robinson .401
RBI per 162 games for their career
Castilla 97
Robinson 67
Runs Scored per 162 games for their career
Castilla 79
Robinson 69
Most Total bases in a season
Castilla 380
Robinson 319
Total Bases per 162 games for their career
Castilla 284
Robinson 239
Total Hits per 162 games for their career
Castilla 165
Robinson 159
Number of times over 100 RBI
Castilla FIve
Robinson Two
Career OPS
Castilla .797
RObinson .723
Defense?
Too murky to measure, but Castilla had a stronger throwing arm, and I swear by watching him, he got to everything I figured a 3B could get to.
Conclusion? Castilla beats RObinson in the all imortant categories of runs scored and RBI per 162 games! Yes, those are REAL runs produced. Knowing this, the argument stops right there on who the better player was! But when I look at all the contributing stats to a players profile, like OPS, TB, Hits, HR frequency, Castilla also dwarfs Robinson in those as well.
I recognize that we all have different perspectives and such, but there is no denying these overwhelming facts.
Perhaps the Hall of Fame has the wrong third basemen in there. Perhaps these numbers suggest that Vinny Castilla should be a no brainer Hall of Famer. But they certainly suggest that he was a better player than Brooks Robinson!
Your fine Robinson - Castilla presentation seems to completely omit any PF items, postive, negative, or neutral.
Regardless, your opinion Castilla has HOF merit, is one that you are certainly entitled to form.
I am glad you are validating that Castilla was better than Robinson. If it weren't for you fine evaluative method(which I borrowed from you), this revelation would not have been possible. I thank you.
took my expreesion of your right to have your own opinion, to infer I was possibly in agreement with it, which I am not.
Carry on, may God bless you.
Perhaps you didn't read this information, or find it interesting....
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
when I say I am truly sorry you are so emotionally disturbed about alternate opinions by others.
As I thought your comment " Jaxxr, are you retarded " to be very alarming and completely disrespectful of individuals or those with family members, so afflicted, I do have a compassion for those unfortunate enough to have to an illness not merely physical.
The fact that a number of people might feel Rice compares well to Murray in many aspects, should not be taken as a personal affront, simply a failure to convey all your personal contrary views. It is of no major consequence in the more important world of real life. Please try to relax a bit, life's too short to fuss over people with other religions, skin colors, backgrounds, or views on baseball.
Continue to post further comparisons if you wish, but please do not continue to mistakenly infer I might be in agreement with any or all of them. I think your name change from Skinpitch to Hoopster was an admirable attempt to promote a new image, and still may do such.
Carry on, good luck, and may God bless you.
What is not to agree with? After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas... Just look at the info...it is straight from what I learned from your methods.
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
I think you could use a tall cold one, to help relax a bit.
I am very relaxed now that I have learned your language. THis is great. Life has become much easier now. Thanks. Your Wagner/Kong method may do wonders for big Dave!
Rice .308, Murray .292
SLG%, with runners in scoring position (RISP)
Rice .501, Murray .497
Jaxxr, we already have Rice covered, he is in and is better than Murray, Winfield, Brett, etc...
Lets focus our energy on getting Kingman in since he was as good as Wagner.
The bank called today and told me I was behind on my mortgage payment, and I told them that that was THEIR interpretation, and that we all have different levels and ways of looking at things. I think it worked because the guy didn't really know what to say. I left him speechless!
P.S. Jaxxr, what does RISP mean? I don't understand.
Oh, I get it, but the way you wrote it, shouldn't it be WRISP?
You got it wrong as usual, either you have a serious inability to recall things, or are merely a liar, as evidenced by your heartfelt statement that you are done.
"we already have Rice covered, he is in and is better than Murray, Winfield, Brett, etc..."
I can not reacall any mention of Brett or Winfield, though it is tough to keep up with your multiple personality or multiple postings.
What I actually have said;
" Jim Rice is a questionable, marginal, border-line candidate for HOF, as others with somewhat short peaks.
He does compare very well with Murray in many aspects. By showing these I do not mean to discredit Murray, merely provide some examples of how Rice is not that much distant to a present HOFer. Depending on your personal evaluation method, he may or may not be worthy."
<< <i>He does compare very well with Murray in many aspects. By showing these I do not mean to discredit Murray, merely provide some examples of how Rice is not that much distant to a present HOFer. >>
I still surrender, and I'm not going to make any arguments here. But maybe this will help clear some things up for everybody:
If, as you say, the examples you provided show that Rice compares very well with Murray in many aspects and that they are examples of how Rice is not that much distant from Murray, why then don't the examples that hoopster posted show that Kingman compares very well with Wagner in many aspects and provide examples of how Kingman is not that much distant from Wagner? In other words, what is it about hoopster's Kingman/Wagner analysis that makes it a joke that is not present in your Rice/Murray analysis?
How about the simple fact that Wagner played during the dead ball era, Kingman didn't and Rice/Murray played during the same one?
Steve
As to Jim Rice and Eddie Murray, perhaps the fact they were often All-Star Game teammates and played in a similar era, allowed me to dare compare the two. Maybe because they both were 6' 2" tall, had a great bearing in causing one to examine a majority vote getter, with a current member. Possibly I failed in thinking an MVP award, a Total Base record, and other items, could have any basis for comparison.
Another meaningless, hand-picked, trival, and not park adjusted, I believe, tidbit, similar to RISP stats provided prior,
Runners on base ( MOB)
BA Rice .305, Murray .300, and SLG % Rice .509, Murray .504
We don't know what they would have done in each's era's, those are just guesses and assumptions. What we do know is that Kingman drove in a higher number of runers per 162 games. Those are REAL runs too!
Jaxxr, Kingman has the total base record over Wagner as well!
Unfortunately neither Kingman nor Wagner won an MVP, but according to baseball reference, Kingman was named on FIVE MVP ballots while Wagner only three! I guess we found another edge for Kingman!
We have both leading advocates on here now!
Rice 1, Murray 0
Hey, that's not park adjusted, of course it is completely meaningless, totally useless without PF.
League leading seasons via Park Adjusted OPS +
Rice 1, Murray 0
After all, Kingman does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
could you post it again ?
In the meantime, I look forward to YOUR next comparison so that I can model those as well.
Perhaps we can make Dan Quisenberry better than Cy Young since he has a higher ERA+ for his career!!!!
a thread you, yourself started, no need to stray far from the topic with other comparisons.
Might I suggest you start another thread with whomever you see as worthy of comparing, threads started by you are typicaly, warm, open-minded, sensitive, and sincerely welcome differing viewpoints.