I will admit, I am a beaten man. I will join the Jaxxr crusade! I don't know why we are talking about Jim Rice and Eddie Murray, when Dave Kingman compares very favorably to the great Honus Wagner!!
My eyes have been opened by our new evaluative methods on this board recently, and I must say with these new evaluative methods that Dave Kingman should be in the Hall of Fame.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
TheVon, you seem to be on board with these new stats as well, as is Winpitcher. You guys have to be drooling over the fact that Kingman has a higher number of RBI than Wagner per 162 games for his career. Those are REAL runs too! I feel like part of the group now! This is great.
Yeah, I know they played different positions, but that isn't the point. The point is that Kingman compares very favorably with Wagner in MANY key areas, and even holds some records that Wagner does NOT, and Wagner is a HOFer. Since Kingman compares so favorably in many Key areas with a HOFer, it makes his induction sensible. If you dont belive me, just look at those lists. If you STILL dont belive me, I CAN POST THEM AGAIN FOR YOU!! These are the facts.
PS. In Kingman's stint with the Yankees he had an OPS+ of 208! Had he played his full career there, we are in Ruth Territory. Wagner nver had an OPS+ of 208!!!!
which was shown to have Rice's total bases on the ROAD to be projected to better Murray's best single season ever, and also that Murray's very best HR season is far short of a Rice ALL road game projected number, you somehow neglected to Fenwayish those items.
Now attack the lack of any context. I assume you must feel OPS + is a perfect, completely reflective combination stat. The fact it includes some items twice, and uses OBP which values getting hit by a pitch, the same as a double or a home run, adds to its imperfection, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
In the context of real life MLB, the result of all games are determined by runs, scoring them and driving them in. Many stats or combinations of them, such as OPS +, raw OPS, SB%, BA, HRs, Hits, HRF, and lots of others, are contributory, helpful, and usually interesting. The only stats which really do matter most, are the actual runs themselves.
In scoring them, Rice tops Murray in best single season, sum of their top five years, and career seasonal average. In driving in runners who do score, which can be done while making an out , Rice tops Murray in best single season, sum of their top five years, and career seasonal average.
Career OPS+, Rice 134, Murray 128 Career Adjusted OPS +, Rice 128, Murray 129 Best AL single season Adjusted OPS +, Rice 157, Murray 156
Rice compares favorably with Murray in many different contexts.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Perhaps you were not interested in the several KEY categories that Kingman beats Wagner in. I want to highlight the fact that Kingman averaged more RBI per 162 games than Wagner for their entire career! Yes, those are real runs, real producing of runs...exactly what wins games.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Perhaps Kingman was the better hitter, and that is why he beats Wagner in several KEY statistical measures. Perhaps you are not inerested in other viewpoints.
I'd like to personally thank Hoopster for providing empirical evidence for something I've always secretly suspected-- which is that these slap hitting candyasses like Honus Wagner have always gotten waaayyyy too much credit by the BBWAA (and the public in general). Viva King Kong!!
The title of this thread you started, indicates neither Honus Wagner, nor Dave Kingman is the subject.
A new and separate thread containg the unrelated topic of Wagner vs Kingman, would be more a more appropriate platform to promote your views and gather other opinions. I am confident many would glady offer their insights in such a venue.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Perhaps you were not interested in the several KEY categories that Kingman beats Wagner in. I want to highlight the fact that Kingman averaged more RBI per 162 games than Wagner for their entire career! Yes, those are real runs, real producing of runs...exactly what wins games.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons... Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35. Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season... Kingman 326 Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR Kingman TWICE Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season Kingman .613 Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games Kingman 101 Wagner 100 Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games Kingman 37 Wagner 6 HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency. Kingman One HR every 15 at bats Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field Kingman: three houses past Waveland. Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Perhaps Kingman was the better hitter, and that is why he beats Wagner in several KEY statistical measures. Perhaps you are not inerested in other viewpoints.
<< <i> TheVon, you seem to be on board with these new stats as well, as is Winpitcher. You guys have to be drooling over the fact that Kingman has a higher number of RBI than Wagner per 162 games for his career. Those are REAL runs too! I feel like part of the group now! This is great. >>
Just because I'm tired of reading the same arguments week after week after week after week doesn't mean I agree or disagree with any of you. I happen to think that most of these discussions dissolve into incoherent diatribes and they make all kinds of assumptions about other people, undefined concepts, and what makes something valuable. These threads all fail to recognize and accept that different types of people value different things. Clearly you and dallas and others value refined analysis while others on this board value more experienced-based data. It does no good to keep screaming the same things louder when your audience doesn't speak your language.
That is why I joined you guys in speaking the same language. Look, Jaxxr and I already agree that Kingman was on par with Honus Wagner, and that Vinny Castilla was clearly better than Brooks Robinson.
Whatever, dude. I think you have a lot of good things to say and your analysis can be really interesting, but you've got the charisma of a flea. If you could manage to show some grace and humility in your posts maybe people would be more open to learning your language. Until then, most of us are just going to continue to feel like you are on a crusade and you won't stop until we all die from the sickness and disease that you spread.
Any person can see easily, who solely has posted that particular comparison, quite voluminously, repetetitiously, and boorishly, in a desperate need for attention, only Skinpictch, AKA Hoopster.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
Our is incorrect, I agree. I should not be giving myself credit for your invention. You twisted my arm, sorry if I tried to steal your thunder. I agree that it is solely YOUR evaluative method that puts Kingman on par with Wagner, and Castilla as better than Brooks.
I don't want the attention. I am giving you all the credit. You are the Pied Piper my man!
I'm just the Villiage Idiot, as you so politely described, me in an edited-removed-replaced post of yours.
Surely not capable of any thought process which might assign weights to various factors, or proportional evaluation, linear equations, leverage index, or standard deviations. I am so foolish that I think runs scored have some remote meaning to baseball.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
But if you know of any blind people that are interested in learning about kaleidoscopes, I would be happy to take on that less frustrating task. >>
I miss Dallasactuary! He was the smartest man on these boards, and had the best succinct touch!
Jaxxr, where have you gone my friend. We may have debated quite often, but it was all in fun. Now Jim Rice gets to be the benchmark for the 100 superior players who are currently not in the HOF. His inclusion has given them fuel.
Heck, Rice was only the third best outfielder ON HIS OWN TEAM! How pissed should Lynn and Evans be that they are not in!
Everyone got fooled by the inflated RBI totals, due to having a lot of guys on base, and playing in the best hitters park in the league! Most of those same people don't realize how many failed RBI's Rice left out there though...leading the league in that in fact!
Did you know that Wade Boggs is the only player to get elected to the HOF twice? Yup, once when he got elected, and the other time when he got on base so much, and Rice got elected
In conclusion, both Jaxxr and sayheykid54 were schooled in this one, though they still might not even realize it!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
My eyes have been opened by our new evaluative methods on this board recently, and I must say with these new evaluative methods that Dave Kingman should be in the Hall of Fame.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
TheVon, you seem to be on board with these new stats as well, as is Winpitcher. You guys have to be drooling over the fact that Kingman has a higher number of RBI than Wagner per 162 games for his career. Those are REAL runs too! I feel like part of the group now! This is great.
Yeah, I know they played different positions, but that isn't the point. The point is that Kingman compares very favorably with Wagner in MANY key areas, and even holds some records that Wagner does NOT, and Wagner is a HOFer. Since Kingman compares so favorably in many Key areas with a HOFer, it makes his induction sensible. If you dont belive me, just look at those lists. If you STILL dont belive me, I CAN POST THEM AGAIN FOR YOU!! These are the facts.
PS. In Kingman's stint with the Yankees he had an OPS+ of 208! Had he played his full career there, we are in Ruth Territory. Wagner nver had an OPS+ of 208!!!!
which was shown to have Rice's total bases on the ROAD to be projected to better Murray's best single season ever,
and also that Murray's very best HR season is far short of a Rice ALL road game projected number, you somehow neglected to Fenwayish those items.
Now attack the lack of any context.
I assume you must feel OPS + is a perfect, completely reflective combination stat. The fact it includes some items twice, and uses OBP which values getting hit by a pitch, the same as a double or a home run, adds to its imperfection, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
In the context of real life MLB, the result of all games are determined by runs, scoring them and driving them in. Many stats or combinations of them, such as OPS +, raw OPS, SB%, BA, HRs, Hits, HRF, and lots of others, are contributory, helpful, and usually interesting. The only stats which really do matter most, are the actual runs themselves.
In scoring them,
Rice tops Murray in best single season, sum of their top five years, and career seasonal average.
In driving in runners who do score, which can be done while making an out ,
Rice tops Murray in best single season, sum of their top five years, and career seasonal average.
Career OPS+, Rice 134, Murray 128
Career Adjusted OPS +, Rice 128, Murray 129
Best AL single season Adjusted OPS +, Rice 157, Murray 156
Rice compares favorably with Murray in many different contexts.
Perhaps you were not interested in the several KEY categories that Kingman beats Wagner in. I want to highlight the fact that Kingman averaged more RBI per 162 games than Wagner for their entire career! Yes, those are real runs, real producing of runs...exactly what wins games.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Perhaps Kingman was the better hitter, and that is why he beats Wagner in several KEY statistical measures. Perhaps you are not inerested in other viewpoints.
A new and separate thread containg the unrelated topic of Wagner vs Kingman, would be more a more appropriate platform to promote your views and gather other opinions. I am confident many would glady offer their insights in such a venue.
After all, he does compare VERY favorably with Honus Wagner in many certain key areas...
TOp Five HR Seasons...
Kingman 48, 37, 37, 36, 35.
Wagner..10,10, 9, 7, 7, 6.
Highest Total Bases in a single season...
Kingman 326
Wagner..308
Number of times leading the league in HR
Kingman TWICE
Wagner ZERO
Highest Slugging PCT. in a season
Kingman .613
Wagner .573
Career average in RBI per 162 games
Kingman 101
Wagner 100
Yes, those are REAL runs too!!!!!!
Career average in HR per 162 games
Kingman 37
Wagner 6
HR are the best hit. No need to walk when you can hit that many HR.
Career Home Run Frequency.
Kingman One HR every 15 at bats
Wagner ONe HR every 101 at bats
And HR Frequency is not directly expressed in OPS+. Nowhere in the OPS+ forumula do I see HR/ab. So this is just another perspective on one of the newer stats guys like to use(like OPS+). I'm not completely discounting OPS+, but rather showing another person's view on how to look at it.
All Time Record for Most HR in last season, Kingman: 35. I may be wrong on this record, but it sounds right.
The longest HR on record at Wrigley Field
Kingman: three houses past Waveland.
Wagner: never crossed Waveland.
Perhaps Kingman was the better hitter, and that is why he beats Wagner in several KEY statistical measures. Perhaps you are not inerested in other viewpoints.
Your views are certainly worthy of a new and separate thread, indeed.
<< <i> TheVon, you seem to be on board with these new stats as well, as is Winpitcher. You guys have to be drooling over the fact that Kingman has a higher number of RBI than Wagner per 162 games for his career. Those are REAL runs too! I feel like part of the group now! This is great. >>
Just because I'm tired of reading the same arguments week after week after week after week doesn't mean I agree or disagree with any of you. I happen to think that most of these discussions dissolve into incoherent diatribes and they make all kinds of assumptions about other people, undefined concepts, and what makes something valuable. These threads all fail to recognize and accept that different types of people value different things. Clearly you and dallas and others value refined analysis while others on this board value more experienced-based data. It does no good to keep screaming the same things louder when your audience doesn't speak your language.
That is why I joined you guys in speaking the same language. Look, Jaxxr and I already agree that Kingman was on par with Honus Wagner, and that Vinny Castilla was clearly better than Brooks Robinson.
I speak the same language now.
I meant I speak the same language as my leader, Jaxxr or his biggest advocate...Winpitcher.
I am not sure if I can go back to my old ways of thinking.
But if you know of any blind people that are interested in learning about kaleidoscopes, I would be happy to take on that less frustrating task.
I just hope my statistical leader stays the course our the Kingman/Wagner comparison.
"our" ????
Any person can see easily, who solely has posted that particular comparison, quite voluminously, repetetitiously, and boorishly, in a desperate need for attention, only Skinpictch, AKA Hoopster.
Our is incorrect, I agree. I should not be giving myself credit for your invention. You twisted my arm, sorry if I tried to steal your thunder. I agree that it is solely YOUR evaluative method that puts Kingman on par with Wagner, and Castilla as better than Brooks.
I don't want the attention. I am giving you all the credit. You are the Pied Piper my man!
as you so politely described, me in an edited-removed-replaced post of yours.
Surely not capable of any thought process which might assign weights to various factors, or proportional evaluation, linear equations, leverage index, or standard deviations. I am so foolish that I think runs scored have some remote meaning to baseball.
Steve
<< <i>No, I was quite serious. I surrender.
But if you know of any blind people that are interested in learning about kaleidoscopes, I would be happy to take on that less frustrating task. >>
I miss Dallasactuary! He was the smartest man on these boards, and had the best succinct touch!
Jaxxr, where have you gone my friend. We may have debated quite often, but it was all in fun. Now Jim Rice gets to be the benchmark for the 100 superior players who are currently not in the HOF. His inclusion has given them fuel.
Heck, Rice was only the third best outfielder ON HIS OWN TEAM! How pissed should Lynn and Evans be that they are not in!
Everyone got fooled by the inflated RBI totals, due to having a lot of guys on base, and playing in the best hitters park in the league! Most of those same people don't realize how many failed RBI's Rice left out there though...leading the league in that in fact!
Did you know that Wade Boggs is the only player to get elected to the HOF twice? Yup, once when he got elected, and the other time when he got on base so much, and Rice got elected
In conclusion, both Jaxxr and sayheykid54 were schooled in this one, though they still might not even realize it!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.