? SEQUENCE OF IKE DIE STEELS ?

ModernDollarNut

Soft references in Wexler, et al, state the 1971 low-relief die steel was W-1 tool steel and the newer die steel for 72 and thereafter high-relief dies was 52100 steel.

This has become accepted history but the Ike Group's metallurgist who worked with dies in the 1970's thinks the reverse may be true.

I've written the details in a post on the Ike Group's web site which makes an interesting story: LINK TO STORY

The Ike Group is looking for first-hand information so if you can shed light on this topic, please pitch in (post here)! THANKS, ROB

RWB

Rob,
Sorry to disagree with both authorities, but neither W-1 nor 52100 die steel were used. The first production Ike dies were made late in the fiscal year and the mint was on a tight budget, so they used left over Christmas fruitcakes instead of steel. (As most people know, fruitcakes are virtually indestructible.) Worked very well and they could have kept using fruitcakes except the chromium plating wouldn't stick.

I think I found this on one of the Nixon tapes….will have to check.

ModernDollarNut

ROGER! That explains why Ike's hair never struck up very well - probably too much brandy in the dough. . . Rob

RWB

Yeah...it was on Nixon tape 22 -- right in the middle of a 20 minute gap -- hmmm, maybe I'd better go check the source material again....

DorkGirl

I was not expecting the fruitcake thingy....

ModernDollarNut

(nor was I, LOL! especially from Roger. . .) Rob

Stew

wonderful piece of die investigating, definitely got my attention, strange timing Just received 71-D RDV-006 in the mail today and have been looking it over off and on all evening. Strange field surfacing almost like a burnished look Being Newb may be way off.

ModernDollarNut

Stew, likely your FEV was struck on a proof planchet, about 10% of all 71-D Ikes were, including FEV's.

You can read all about it here: FEV and PROOF PLANCHETS

Rob

ProofArtworkonCircs

Well Rob,
You are off to a rip-roaring start here! At least we have a FEV convert. Carry on.

Stew

Rob the last link you posted is the page where I was able to attribute the 71 D RDV006 You guys are doing some great work there. Makes for some very educational reading. My 15 year old son also references The Ike Group occasionally, he just began collecting this year. Here are some shots of the Ike, they were shot with a energy saving fluorescent bulb showed contrast in the field very nicely, the coin is actually almost white but for our purposes I left it the color it is in the picture, easier to see the field.

ModernDollarNut

Stew, nice photos! The halmarks of a proof planchet 71-D are most undeniable when the dies are VLDS as there is no practical way to "polish" either struck coin or die when the die-flow corregations are so coarse.

The other feature of these 71-D clad proof planchets is the freedom from "Annealing Marks" (we formerly called these "Planchet Chatter") (note that 5 - 10% of 71-D Proof Planchet Ikes have some light Marks, probably because that percentage of proof planchets routinely do: in this case the marks are not from annealing but are probably residual dings from the original strip of from handling between blanking press and steel-ball vat.)

Isn't the FEV story cool! Rob

Stew

Rob,
yes the story is very cool, I really enjoy reading about those types of things, I'm still not sure what VLDS stands for yet. but on the link you posted to the RDV-006 Identification page I can see where the field surface is quite similar to the one I have, Yesterday was a very good day.
My son comes in with the mail and says Merry Christmas. He had no idea how right he was

19Lyds

VLDS = Very Late Die State

Stew

Ahh Very good Much clearer picture in my head now, Thank You, Die wear progression through the life of the die. Never thought about that before. This just gets more and more interesting. That might explain the three marks on the Eagles leg that look like Cudding, I have to do some more studying on it later this afternoon

ModernDollarNut

Stew, there isn't much written on the topic of Die States. Alan Herbert's book on Errors, the bible of that industry, has a brief chapter. The father of die states, Del Romines published one paper, in CONECA's ErrorScope and several private photo catalogs of his research. Unfortunately Del never studied Ikes and I'm convinced the low relief Ikes minted in 71 and 72 ripped through Del's defined die states faster than smaller denominations.

My best effort to date on this topic (and it is in need of revision already) can be found on our web site here:

LINK TO IKE DIE-STATE DRAFT PAPER

Rob

Stew

Wonderful read, You guys have some great things on the site

ProofArtworkonCircs

The www.ikegroup.org discussion referenced in Rob's first post in this thread has been expanded today. I think it now includes everything we know on the subject. Unfortunately, it may seem somewhat like a maze. Hey, we had to go through it, why not you? Maybe, someday, hopefully with some more input, we will have a cleaner story.

Note the mint speculated that going to a one step hubbing process might require yet another new die steel. They have done that. Was there a new steel? A working die is made from a working hub made from a master die made from a master hub. Is it the same steel for all these steps?

The sinking problem requiring a new die steel in 1971-1972 was caused by the circulating Ike dollar being the largest, hardest coin ever struck by the USA. The 1971 Kennedy half dollar would have had that same dubious honor if struck earllier than Ikes in 1971. Was there any sinking observed on 1971 half dollar circulation strikes? All the early clad issues seem to have had minor design adjustments.

Shamika

I have to admit, I'm gaining a whole new appreciation for Ike dollars.

ModernDollarNut

Bill, our die and tool engineer, has just posted his contribution to the thread on www.ikegroup.org,

LINK TO IKE DIE STEEL IKE GROUP THREAD

This is getting really good.

ModernDollarNut

The Ike Group's Metallurgical Engineer just responded to our thread on Ike die metals: this is REALLY getting good.

LINKY

(I'm providing links each time because our web site has become quite large.)

ProofArtworkonCircs

Yet another two postings have been added to this discussion at www.ikegroup.org. Use Rob's link just previous.


edited to change "directly above" to "just previous" since I started a new page.