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2:59PM - Dow gains +901, Riddle me this - is it a Bull Trap? (corrected)

jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
And of course, gold gains about $18.90 on the day. And silver gains about $0.06 to $9.11.

Odd, huh?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

I knew it would happen.

Comments

  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Happy days are here again!

    The market sees all well in 6 months, no problems. Consumer debt paid off, housing rebound, tax cuts and a chicken in every pot.image

    Ren
  • konsolekonsole Posts: 795 ✭✭✭
    amazed even after the low consumer confidence number
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    I sold a little and I bought a little, today.

    My "feeling" is still DOW 10K+ before the end of the year,
    BUT there will likely be some sellers in the next day or two.

    It was particulary interesting/telling today, that there were
    relatively "no sellers" until the pop started its last run.

    The bid/ask all day on TONS of stocks was super-WIDE. Folks
    simply refused to sell at the low prices.

    ............

    My AA and X trades got well, today.

    AA, last year at this time, was still speculated as a takeover
    in the $45 to $60 range. Not scooping it up at $9+ this week
    just made no sense to me.

    Even FRPT popped today, on low volume.

    DUG spanked me twice as hard as DIG kissed me, today.

    I have still not covered any GLD/SLV. I will post it, when/if I do.


    ///////////////

    edit to add: Blue Horseshoe Loves MOO.

    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The bid/ask all day on TONS of stocks was super-WIDE. Folks simply refused to sell at the low prices.

    This can't be. We are all conditioned to accept stock and comex metal prices just as they are presented to us. We sheeple are obligated to fork over our gold, silver, and S&P stocks at the bid price so that the larger sharks can benefit. Carry on.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    Probably. In anticipation of a rate cut, it is a relief rally

    from a temporarily oversold condition. If the Fed fails

    to reduce rates , the market will fall. If the Fed does

    reduce rates, the market will still fall. This is a trading

    opportunity only.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • Closed at Resistance.

    ;>


  • << <i>Probably. In anticipation of a rate cut, it is a relief rally

    from a temporarily oversold condition. If the Fed fails

    to reduce rates , the market will fall. If the Fed does

    reduce rates, the market will still fall. This is a trading

    opportunity only. >>




    I'm expecting as much as a full point cut tomorow.

    They're just pulling out all the stops trying to prop up this falling house of cards.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭
    this is still part of the rollercoaster...



  • << <i>Probably. In anticipation of a rate cut, it is a relief rally >>





    << <i>from a temporarily oversold condition. If the Fed fails >>





    << <i>to reduce rates , the market will fall. If the Fed does >>





    << <i>reduce rates, the market will still fall. This is a trading >>





    << <i>opportunity only. >>



    Ahh the old bear offers up much wisdom in those double spaces.
    It would be very fruitful to adhere grasshopper.
    OLDER IS BETTER
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    Folks who have convinced themselves that the sidelines are the
    only place to be, should realize that panic buying is sometimes more
    violent than panic selling.

    "Fear" is generally thought to be more powerful than "greed,"
    but I suspect we might be about to see an exception to that rule.

    Fear of missing the greed train could kick in strong, soon.




    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • It's not a bear trap only a man trap wait till after the elections don't fall for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The phrase is "bull trap", is it not?


    No. I think this is for real. Industry, finance and infrastructure all have
    to survive for us to survive. It follows that stocks have some value or
    we'll all be gone anyway.

    The real bull is a few years off yet and the low might not be in but the
    Dow isn't going a great deal lower probably.
    Tempus fugit.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭

    This is the correct definition of "bear trap."

    While the term is often used incorrectcly, this is the ONLY correct classic definition.

    .........



    A false signal that the rising trend of a stock or index has reversed when it has not.

    This can occur during a bear market reversal when short sellers believe the markets will sink back to its declining ways. If the market continues to rise, the short sellers get trapped and are forced to cover their positions at higher prices.


    /////////////////

    edit to add:

    I have been playing this game for a long time.
    I have never seen so many folks be interested
    in SHORTing stocks as I have seen in the past
    month.

    Many, but not most, of the SHORTs are newbies.
    I suspect they are going to be crushed, very soon.

    I was SHORT tons of stuff for the past year+. The
    new guys are VERY late to the party.






    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, so I need to re-phrase my question. Bull trap, then.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Ok, so I need to re-phrase my question. Bull trap, then. >>



    .............


    Bull Trap

    A false signal indicating that a declining trend in a stock or index has reversed and is heading upwards when, in fact, the security will continue to decline.

    A bull trap often causes some investors to buy the stock, but because the stock continues to decline after the initial signal, those who bought in are "trapped" in a bad investment.


    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////


    SOME of what happened today, looked "real."
    NOT all of it, but some of it.

    I dunno.

    ..................

    After today's Porsche/VW debacle, a BUNCH of folks will need
    to raise CASH in Europe, before the end of the week.

    Maybe they will dump US securities.

    VW is now trading at about 95-times 2009 earnings.

    Some beaten-down US shares are around 6-times, AND paying
    HUGE dividends.

    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • MoneyLAMoneyLA Posts: 1,825
    to respond to the original post:

    we have had "one day wonders" before only to be followed by renewed selling. one day does not make a trend.

    let's see what happens over the next few days.

    hopefully it is the start of a recovery... hopefully.

    this is the commentary Ive been making the last few times we've had big jumps in the market, only to be followed by renewed selling.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,227 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>And of course, gold gains about $18.90 on the day. And silver gains about $0.06 to $9.11.

    Odd, huh? >>



    Well, one speculation is that recent drops in gold have been causes by stock market players having to sell gold to cover margin calls and/or losses in stock. Nobody lost money in stocks today, so nobody was forced to sell.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...Nobody lost money in stocks today, so nobody was forced to sell...."

    ///////////////////////


    SHORTs lost money. Some covered in time, and some were
    bought-in. Others, got margin-calls tonight.

    In Europe, it appears that as much as $30-Billion was lost
    by traders SHORT in the VW-PORSCHE fiasco. (Thousands
    of SHORTs were "bought-in" as VW shares soared. Some
    more BIG hedgies were likely wiped-out.)

    Tonight, VW has the second-largest market-cap of ANY corp
    on the planet. XOM is still #1.

    XOM has a P/E of about 9+/-. (Up from less than 8, last week.)

    VW has a P/E of about 95+/-.

    Insanity is prevailing.



    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • It's not a bull or bear trap just a RIP. The B.B. are getting the DIP for 50 Billion in 401k and IRA accounts.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    XOM has a P/E of about 9+/-. (Up from less than 8, last week.)

    VW has a P/E of about 95+/-.

    Insanity is prevailing.


    image

    This would imply that there will be much more oil available at lower prices, and many more VWs at competitive prices.

    As Spock would say, "That is illogical"
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • MoneyLAMoneyLA Posts: 1,825
    don't you follow the news? don't you know what is going on with VW ?
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    don't you follow the news? don't you know what is going on with VW ?

    No, sorry. What is it?
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    vw
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>vw >>



    LOL. stupid hedge funds and go porsche! own them suits.


  • << <i>vw >>



    "What is upsetting the hedge funds is that if between 10% and 15% of VW shares were on loan to be shorted and only just over 5% were available in the market, it is likely that many of the funds that shorted VW had borrowed the shares from Porsche.

    It meant that because Porsche had not declared the proportion of VW shares it controlled, traders may have been indirectly and inadvertently borrowing shares from Porsche, selling them to Porsche, buying them back from Porsche and then returning them to Porsche.

    None of this is currently outlawed by German authorities, but many commentators have described it as bringing German capital markets into disrepute. "

    Wow!
    imageQuid pro quo. Yes or no?
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...None of this is currently outlawed by German authorities, but many commentators have described it as bringing German capital markets into disrepute. ".."

    //////////////////////////////////////////

    Equally complex and convoluted "lending/borrowing" schemes
    are permitted in the US markets.

    ......

    The funniest upshot of this strange/ridiculous circumstance is
    that Porsche now has so many options/warrants and equivalents
    that if they were all exercised, Porsche would NOT have the CASH
    to either pay for the shares OR to pay the TAXES on their gains.

    With a P/E of 95+/-, some European/American traders are likely
    already plotting new ways to SHORT the VW PIG.

    image
    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's always something to short out there. If stocks are going up for a while, then short gold. If gold is going up, short the dollar.

    How about just shorting a short fund as the underlying asset is running up?

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    "How about just shorting a short fund as the underlying asset is running up?"

    That would work, especially if we could find a suitable underlying asset to fund the short fund that we want to short.
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