Not sure you could even get deep into the 1920's before spending $1.4M with the real #1 set?
26-S appears to have sold for plenty of money for the quality of the coin - roughly the same price it traded at a number of years ago (and at least 4 owners ago).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Personally, I think the pre-auction bids look alright. I mean, some of the Lee coins aren't exactly PQ for the grade, as pointed out, but for those that are, the bidding has been brisk ... I think what we're really seeing is an exapmle of how widely varied the prices can be within a particular grade. >>
Strictly in an effort to create a comparable hypothetical, let's just assume for the sake of argument that an experienced collector named Stuart (a fictitious name, unrelated to any actual person, living or dead) decided to sell a set of Lincoln cents worth over a million dollars. What do you think the chances are that Mr. Stuart would choose to sell his coins at Heritage in Dallas with NO reserves, NO floor bidding, in the absence of ANY major coin show, AND with NO previewing of ANY of the coins at ANY major coin show, as opposed to simply waiting until the next month to have Heritage sell the coins at the huge FUN show in Florida? Do you think the chances are much higher than zero? Do you think the coins would likely realize more money in total at the FUN show in January? And if instead the sale was ordered NOT by the imaginary, sophisticated Stuart, but rather by a relatively ignorant (about coins) executor of his estate, WHO would you imagine might possibly persuade Stuart's executor to hold the sale in Dallas in December, and WHY?
Those are all merely rhetorical questions. I'm just wondering, 'cause that's the kind of guy I am. Curious.
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
executor's are not collectors and they personally do not always have business or collectables savvy -Nothing against Jack Lee but I agree the auction should have been scheduled at a better time economically and to fit with a better auction/coin show schedule
<< <i>executor's are not collectors and they personally do not always have business or collectables savvy -Nothing against Jack Lee but I agree the auction should have been scheduled at a better time economically and to fit with a better auction/coin show schedule >>
I agree, but I think you are entirely missing my point.
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
<< <i>executor's are not collectors and they personally do not always have business or collectables savvy -Nothing against Jack Lee but I agree the auction should have been scheduled at a better time economically and to fit with a better auction/coin show schedule >>
You are assuming that the Lee Estate didn't need to get the sale on the books within a certain time period.
Well, I'm just going to come out and say it... Mr. Lee could not have died at a less opportune moment in history with regard to the value realized for his Lincoln Cent collection, and especially with regard for the values of the "holder, not the coin" coins. I am referring to the bulk of his pre-1930 coins. As we are all well aware, speculation about 2009 drove prices skyward toward the end of 2007 and well into 2008, and as it would appear, Mr. Lee was at the forefront of this movement. It seems like yesterday that he aquired the Corwin collection for nearly a million dollars, and then he was gone. He was willing to pay high prices simply to aquire the highest grades, which in its own way, secured apparant value within the market for comparable pieces. But when that big a fish dies, the stinking rot left behind can ruin the whole pond. Couple that with the floundering economy and the foreseeable end of the 2009 speculation, and you've got the makings for a scenario like the one we've just witnessed.
And with regard to Richard's comments above, I think many of us have been wondering along the same lines. I just assumed that the family wasn't fully versed in the subtleties of marketability and timing, the executor advised quick liquidation in order to avoid drawn out value speculation, and the auction company simply filled a need either without adequate marketability consideration, or simply out of greed.
But lets not forget... things would have indeed been different if we were talking about a collection of "PQ for the grade" coins, and not coins that, for the price would have been refused by a well heeled collector. People collect coins for a lot of different reasons. A deep rooted love of coins is definitely a prime ingredient, but many forces can play a role. Based on Mr. Lee's model, I would assume that he was strongly motivated to build the premier set of Lincoln cents within his set of constraints. Building a set such as the one compiled by the non-fictional Stuart Blay takes so much more than deep pockets. It takes decades of focus and dedication. This was a commodity of which it would seem that Mr. Lee was in short supply.
Maybe we should all stop trying to figure out what went wrong with the sale of the Lee Estate Lincoln Cents. Maybe we should commend him for his drive and focus, and unwavering ability to secure coins of the highest regard for what turned out to be one of the most notable collections of Lincoln Cents of our time.
Also keep in mind that if the bottom were to fall out of the coin market then the executor might be facing a law suit for not selling the coins as soon as possible. Selling the coins in early December, even with the FUN show coming up in a month, might well have been the safest course for the executor.
As far as timing and the stand alone sale?? Mrs. Lee surely has figured out how the coin market works after watching/helping her husband over the last 30 plus years. I doubt that she was a clueless collectors wife.
Selling for less lowers the taxes due on the estate.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Selling for less lowers the taxes due on the estate. >>
Oh, please! That's like saying "I'd rather take a loss to reduce my tax burden." Nobody who's ever thought that through really feels that way. Two things at work here:
1) Uncertainty 2) Low end for the grade coins
There is most likely a hidden third thing that is being alluded to in the above posts, but this isn't really the place to discuss it in public. Let's just say that the guys who were getting paid to sell the coins knew exactly what they were doing.
Stewart opened this thread by alluding to the 100th anniversary of the Lincoln cent and obliquely asking if the Jack Lee sale would be a bellweather for the upcoming year.
A few years ago, many thought that 2009 would bring incredible popularity to Lincoln cent collecting. It may still be the case, but I doubt that those folks anticipated the economic conditions in which we are living.
Suffice it to say that several factors accounted for the soft prices realized for the Jack Lee Lincolns. My guess is that if any Lincoln collectors were waiting until 2009 to sell their collections, they might be thinking twice now.
<< <i>Also keep in mind that if the bottom were to fall out of the coin market then the executor might be facing a law suit for not selling the coins as soon as possible. Selling the coins in early December, even with the FUN show coming up in a month, might well have been the safest course for the executor. >>
If a potential lawsuit for not selling the coins as soon as possible were an issue, then why would the Corwin portion of Jack's collection be sold at the FUN show in January? On Oct. 15 Stewart wrote:
<< <i>Jack will have a bunch of coins in FUN also because he bought the infamous Scott Corwin collection. The big question is if the coins will be reserved. I have no doubt Heritage will protect Jack's coins. He paid $120,000 for the 26 S. Do you think Heritage will let it go for 50 K ? I doubt it. >>
Concerning Stewart's Oct. 15 post, I think he was incredibly prescient in putting his finger precisely on what he called "the big question." As for his predicted answer, I would just say that the majority of good people want to believe that people are inherently good. To quote William March's The Bad Seed (1954), "Good people are rarely suspicious: they cannot imagine others doing the things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually they accept the undramatic solution as the correct one, and let matters rest there."
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
You guys are really over thinking the Jack Lee sale with respect to the sale part. I really don't think a family with that kind of wealth is going to lose a wink of sleep over $400k-$500k, and probably preferred to just get the estate wrapped up as quickly as possible.
As far as the coins themselves, the coins brought what they brought, and each stood or fell on its own. End of story.
Personally, I was glad to see an auction that wasn't a "fixed price list" auction set at above market prices.
<< <i>I really don't think a family with that kind of wealth is going to lose a wink of sleep over $400k-$500k, and probably preferred to just get the estate wrapped up as quickly as possible. >>
Actually, that's not so hard to believe.
"Let's just get it over with. What difference does it make how much money the coins sell for? We already have more than enough."
Maybe you really are "right." I hope so.
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
It is interesting to take a good look at the Heritage Auction results for this sale.
Take a GOOD look at the wonderful Heritage images of the recent memorial cents.
I never realized the spotting was so bad on what PCGS grades as an MS67. There are even spots on 68s. I was roll sorting (before I got tired of it) and have many that have fewer spots. Maybe I should bite the bullet and send a few in.
<< <i>It is interesting to take a good look at the Heritage Auction results for this sale.
Take a GOOD look at the wonderful Heritage images of the recent memorial cents.
I never realized the spotting was so bad on what PCGS grades as an MS67. There are even spots on 68s. I was roll sorting (before I got tired of it) and have many that have fewer spots. Maybe I should bite the bullet and send a few in. >>
If they're from the 60's or 70's, then forget it. You simply won't get any. Don't go by the Heritage coins. Either the spotting occurred after slabbing or the coins were graded back when PCGS remembered how to use the "7".
Since our collection, the Corwin Family Collection has now been mentioned several times in this thread, I would like to set the record straight on a few items:
1. My son and I had assembled our collection over a six year period, with love and care. In the past two years I had worked with Ira, Jimmy, Dave and Andy to vastly improve the quality of our set. We replaced coins that we felt were below average for the grade with coins that were better than average to PQ for the grade. We were quite successful in doing this.
2. I would say unequivocally in the end that our set consisted of coins that were above average to PQ for over 95% of the wheat portion of our set.
3. Circumstances in the economy and our life forced the need to sell the set. As I had posted in the description of our set it was my intention to keep the set together foreever and pass it on to my son. However, things change and no one can predict everything. My son, now nearly 16 had lost interest in coin collecting that he had in his younger years (moved on to girls and other teenage pursuits).
4. Ira brokered the sale of the set for me to which I am grateful. Ira and Jimmy and Andy and Dave have all been great throughout the years. I appreciate all of their help and knowledge teaching me about collecting lincolns.
5. I did not know who the buyer of the set was at the time. The sale was a blind sale.
6. The set sold at the beginning of August 2008 for approximately $900,000.00 which was almost precisely the then current PCGS market value.
7. I specifically choose not to reholder my coins or pedigree them at any time on the advice of Ira and many other experienced collectors and dealers. I did not want to expose the coins to the elements.
8. We are very sad to see the collection go, and when I learned that Jack Lee had purchased it once the sale was concluded, I was quite happy. Learning of his passing almost immediately therefter was a sad day for us.
9. As an attorney and familiar with probate, I can tell you all that there was and is no law, regulation or other provision that would require an immediate sale of the coins. As others have stated above it is my understanding that Mr. Lee was a multi millionaire. I assume the executors were his family members and even the entire collections value would have no significant meaning to them. Furthermore, I was suprised to learn that Jack's set and my set would be sold at an auction with no lot viewing and no associated convention/show. I was concerned that combined with the worsening economic news and the flood of high grade Lincolns onto the marketplace in a less than desirable sales venue would depress the price of the coins.
10. I have done some careful calculations and I believe that it is fairly accurate to state that the coins that comprised the same grade as mine (as many of my coins have not yet sold apparently, but Jack had coins that matched my grades and perhaps even had duplicates) sold for approximately 68% of the current PCGS market value. This is based on my analysis of the top 50 sales prices of coins that represented about 80% of the overall value of the 250 coin set.
11. For example I had a 1915-S in 66RD. The coin that sold was not mine. However, it sold for $31,050 compared to its market value of $65,000 (I paid $55,000 for mine) -- that represents 48% of market value. The 1917 DDO 66RD that sold was my coin. That coin sold for $28,750. Market value was $42,500. I purchased it in the Dan Close auction for $48,300. It was a stunningly beautiful coin. It fetched only 68% of PCGS market value. My 1922 NoD SR MS63BN was also an incredible coin. I purchased it at the Long Beach auction in February 2007. Andy and Ira both saw that coin and thought it was close to an upgrade to 64BN. I showed it to David Hall personally and he thought it was quite beautiful though not quite an upgrade to the next level. I paid $37,500, the PCGS market value at the time was $40,000 and it sold in Jack's estate auction for $28,750 or 72% of market value.
12. In fact only 7 coins (of the coins that matched my grades) sold for 100% or more of PCGS market value. All of the rest of the top 50 that I examined sold for less and some as low as 28% of market value. Some of the disasters I saw were a 1913-D selling for 35% and then 1917-S selling for 43%.
It is my understanding that many of my coins will be for sale at the FUN auction. I would encourage everyone to take a close look at those coins. Many of them are PQ and quite gorgeous. If you have questions check with Ira and he can render an opinion.
Again, I hope this clears up many misconceptions at least with regard to my set and my sale and my reasons therefore.
Corwin Family Collection
LuckyLincolns Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection #1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
<< <i>9. As an attorney and familiar with probate, I can tell you all that there was and is no law, regulation or other provision that would require an immediate sale of the coins. As others have stated above it is my understanding that Mr. Lee was a multi millionaire. I assume the executors were his family members and even the entire collections value would have no significant meaning to them. Furthermore, I was suprised to learn that Jack's set and my set would be sold at an auction with no lot viewing and no associated convention/show. I was concerned that combined with the worsening economic news and the flood of high grade Lincolns onto the marketplace in a less than desirable sales venue would depress the price of the coins. >>
In light of of the information "setting the record straight" provided by the Corwin Family Collection, in particular their point #9 which is quoted above, I would like to simply reiterate my original post, which was in response to the following:
<< <i>Personally, I think the pre-auction bids look alright. I mean, some of the Lee coins aren't exactly PQ for the grade, as pointed out, but for those that are, the bidding has been brisk ... I think what we're really seeing is an example of how widely varied the prices can be within a particular grade. >>
Strictly in an effort to create a comparable hypothetical, let's just assume for the sake of argument that an experienced collector named Stuart (a fictitious name, unrelated to any actual person, living or dead) decided to sell a set of Lincoln cents worth over a million dollars. What do you think the chances are that Mr. Stuart would choose to sell his coins at Heritage in Dallas with NO reserves, NO floor bidding, in the absence of ANY major coin show, AND with NO previewing of ANY of the coins at ANY major coin show, as opposed to simply waiting until the next month to have Heritage sell the coins at the huge FUN show in Florida? Do you think the chances are much higher than zero? Do you think the coins would likely realize more money in total at the FUN show in January? And if instead the sale was ordered NOT by the imaginary, sophisticated Stuart, but rather by the relatively ignorant (about coins) executor of his estate, WHO would you imagine might possibly persuade Stuart's executor to hold the sale in Dallas in December, and WHY?
Those are all merely rhetorical questions. I'm just wondering, 'cause that's the kind of guy I am. Curious.
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
7. I specifically choose not to reholder my coins or pedigree them at any time on the advice of Ira and many other experienced collectors and dealers. I did not want to expose the coins to the elements.
I therefore ask the same question I raised earlier in this thread, who decided to reholder the coins? I am only curious because the ramifications may end up being far reaching and have negative impact on some of the coins that were exposed to the elements for the first time in many years. Jonathan
Roger - Great point ! The doubling on a 1917 DDO is not that spectacular. The 1936 DDO #1 sold for $23,000.
The doubling on the 1936 is far more pronounced. There were also two other 1917 DDO cents in PCGS ms 66 red that sold for app. $25,000.
Hello Scott - You must have been told that Ira convinced Jack to buy your set for the varieties. You must also know that your coins will be sold in Long Beach in February.
Richard: Wasn't it Heritage that decided to put the Jack Lee Lincoln Cent Collection up for auction in two less than spectacular showcases, Houston in December, and now, according to Stewart, remainder in the February 2009 Long Beach Show? I have never attended the Long Beach Show but have been told that the floor activity in the bourse area is so sparse, “you could roll a bowling ball down one of the aisles and not hit anyone”. Let’s just say I made mistake of having some of my coins auctioned off in one of them in recent years and the results were poor. Thus a lesson I paid for dearly! Jonathan
And what did Heritage think about the sale of Jack Lee’s coins? I received the following comments in an email, which I imagine was sent to all their clients. I’ll pass it on, without comment, but certainly with a grin - remember I'm only the messenger.
“Finest Lincoln Cents & Registry Rarities Star In Heritage's $11 Million Houston Coin Auction
“The #1 All-Time Finest Set of Lincoln Cents ever assembled, by Jack Lee, sold in heated competition at the Official Auction of the Houston Money Show of the Southwest....
“Houston contained three different offerings from the Estate of Jack Lee. Bidders were out in force to contend for Jack's #1 All-Time Finest Registry Set of Lincoln Cents. Lincolns are so important to the market that it difficult to think of a more popular collector series - perhaps only Morgan dollars comes close. For decades, Jack put aside the finest Lincolns he encountered for his personal holdings, and this set was the result. High quality produced high enthusiasm among the bidders. Bidder interest was also high for Jack's Estate Collection coins, as well as additional selections from his inventory. All these coins bear the critical "Ex: Jack Lee" pedigree that reflected Jack's incredibly keen eye. Additional Jack Lee coins will also be included in our January FUN Platinum Night and February Long Beach auctions.”
I have discussed this with Ira and your statement as to why Jack bought my set is not correct. Ira informed me that Jack bought the set because he wanted the inventory.
I am sorry I never had the chance to meet you in person nor see your coins in Baltimore (as I could not make it due to a family conflict). Hope I get the chance to meet you some time in Long Beach, where I plan on dropping by from time to time.
LuckyLincolns Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection #1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
It is my understanding that Long Beach is a good venue, although a dealer oriented show. I have attended numerous live auctions in Long Beach and have seen vigorous competitive bidding on Lincolns many times.
LuckyLincolns Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection #1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
Scott: I am truly sorry if my attempt at humor came across a bit negative. I hope the show turns out to be a big success and these coins reap the value they truly deserve. My own personal choice would have been FUN or a big ANA show, that’s all. Jonathan
Not sure it had more to do with the location and the sale venue as the economic times. I wouldn't want to be a position to have to unload recently purchased expensive lincolns regardless of which sale its being conducted in. PCGS price guidleines can be way off.
I agree with the last statement. I believe bad economic times are a greater effect on the price than the choice of venue for the sale, though I am sure the Dallas sale did not help things.
LuckyLincolns Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection #1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
Wow!! It's been a while since Gerry made his presence known.
Agreed, thanks Gerry. So now the two greatest collectors of Lincolns have offered comments to the post.
All due respects to the great Jack Lee, but his pedigree means nothing in this series. Its like buying a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle.
The great Lincoln collections that were assembled through time, with the same skill and patience Jack Lee assembled silver dollars, cant be compared to the Jack Lee Lincoln collection.
To really take this off topic, I don't have one signed by the Mick, but if anyone wants one signed by Mike Eruzione they can have it. The Mick one I would keep.
<< <i> All due respects to the great Jack Lee, but his pedigree means nothing in this series. Its like buying a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle. >>
Maybe a better analogy would be a baseball signed by Gordie Howe.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
You don't need to be a Yankee fan to want something signed by the greatest raw talent to ever play the game. Injuries cost Mickey "best player ever" attribution. Just my opinion, of course. Flame away.
I agree, Mick and a player name Mays are the two best players ever. Rose is there in batting. These multimillion dollar players now don't hold a candle to these guys.
I know this is OT, But another thing that drives me crazy is when the media calls every good basketball player out of college "the next Micheal Jordan". ! L. James will never be MJ. If you don't believe me just look at any MJ film clip. He was and will always be the best!
When the auction houses send entire collections in for a pedigree label, I would assume that the coins are looked at again for potential upgrades. Would that not also include coins that should be downgraded? Or, are the grades "protected"?
PCGS will pay you for a coin that is sent in for grade review. They will pay the difference between PCGS list values.
However, I have heard of strange things happening... like a coin sent in for mechanical reholdering, and then changed from MS63 to PR58... so it would appear that the coins are looked at in some fashion.
<< <i>PCGS will pay you for a coin that is sent in for grade review. They will pay the difference between PCGS list values.
However, I have heard of strange things happening... like a coin sent in for mechanical reholdering, and then changed from MS63 to PR58... so it would appear that the coins are looked at in some fashion.
-Matt >>
If you're referring to my instance, it was an 1864 seated dollar going from MS60 to Pf58 when sent in for mechanical error. Oh, and about 6 months of letters and finally a check to cover the difference. Oh well, that's over with now... lol
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Comments
Jack Lee 09-58 w/major varieties: $1,389,536.95
** Does not in the 09svdb in 67, which he sold prior to the auction
** Does include a duplicate 1936-d
Not sure you could even get deep into the 1920's before spending $1.4M with the real #1 set?
26-S appears to have sold for plenty of money for the quality of the coin - roughly the same price it traded at a number of years ago (and at least 4 owners ago).
Wondercoin
<< <i>Personally, I think the pre-auction bids look alright. I mean, some of the Lee coins aren't exactly PQ for the grade, as pointed out, but for those that are, the bidding has been brisk ... I think what we're really seeing is an exapmle of how widely varied the prices can be within a particular grade. >>
Strictly in an effort to create a comparable hypothetical, let's just assume for the sake of argument that an experienced collector named Stuart (a fictitious name, unrelated to any actual person, living or dead) decided to sell a set of Lincoln cents worth over a million dollars. What do you think the chances are that Mr. Stuart would choose to sell his coins at Heritage in Dallas with NO reserves, NO floor bidding, in the absence of ANY major coin show, AND with NO previewing of ANY of the coins at ANY major coin show, as opposed to simply waiting until the next month to have Heritage sell the coins at the huge FUN show in Florida? Do you think the chances are much higher than zero? Do you think the coins would likely realize more money in total at the FUN show in January? And if instead the sale was ordered NOT by the imaginary, sophisticated Stuart, but rather by a relatively ignorant (about coins) executor of his estate, WHO would you imagine might possibly persuade Stuart's executor to hold the sale in Dallas in December, and WHY?
Those are all merely rhetorical questions. I'm just wondering, 'cause that's the kind of guy I am. Curious.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>executor's are not collectors and they personally do not always have business or collectables savvy -Nothing against Jack Lee but I agree the auction should have been scheduled at a better time economically and to fit with a better auction/coin show schedule >>
I agree, but I think you are entirely missing my point.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>executor's are not collectors and they personally do not always have business or collectables savvy -Nothing against Jack Lee but I agree the auction should have been scheduled at a better time economically and to fit with a better auction/coin show schedule >>
You are assuming that the Lee Estate didn't need to get the sale on the books within a certain time period.
<< <i>You are assuming that the Lee Estate didn't need to get the sale on the books within a certain time period. >>
Quite possibly, but not necessarily, true. It's certainly not the only plausible reason, and perhaps not the likeliest reason, either.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
And with regard to Richard's comments above, I think many of us have been wondering along the same lines. I just assumed that the family wasn't fully versed in the subtleties of marketability and timing, the executor advised quick liquidation in order to avoid drawn out value speculation, and the auction company simply filled a need either without adequate marketability consideration, or simply out of greed.
But lets not forget... things would have indeed been different if we were talking about a collection of "PQ for the grade" coins, and not coins that, for the price would have been refused by a well heeled collector. People collect coins for a lot of different reasons. A deep rooted love of coins is definitely a prime ingredient, but many forces can play a role. Based on Mr. Lee's model, I would assume that he was strongly motivated to build the premier set of Lincoln cents within his set of constraints. Building a set such as the one compiled by the non-fictional Stuart Blay takes so much more than deep pockets. It takes decades of focus and dedication. This was a commodity of which it would seem that Mr. Lee was in short supply.
Maybe we should all stop trying to figure out what went wrong with the sale of the Lee Estate Lincoln Cents. Maybe we should commend him for his drive and focus, and unwavering ability to secure coins of the highest regard for what turned out to be one of the most notable collections of Lincoln Cents of our time.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Selling for less lowers the taxes due on the estate.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Selling for less lowers the taxes due on the estate. >>
Oh, please! That's like saying "I'd rather take a loss to reduce my tax burden." Nobody who's ever thought that through really feels that way. Two things at work here:
1) Uncertainty
2) Low end for the grade coins
There is most likely a hidden third thing that is being alluded to in the above posts, but this isn't really the place to discuss it in public. Let's just say that the guys who were getting paid to sell the coins knew exactly what they were doing.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Finally, some significant discussion.
Stewart opened this thread by alluding to the 100th anniversary of the Lincoln cent and obliquely asking if the Jack Lee sale would be a bellweather for the upcoming year.
A few years ago, many thought that 2009 would bring incredible popularity to Lincoln cent collecting. It may still be the case, but I doubt that those folks anticipated the economic conditions in which we are living.
Suffice it to say that several factors accounted for the soft prices realized for the Jack Lee Lincolns. My guess is that if any Lincoln collectors were waiting until 2009 to sell their collections, they might be thinking twice now.
Jack
<< <i>Also keep in mind that if the bottom were to fall out of the coin market then the executor might be facing a law suit for not selling the coins as soon as possible. Selling the coins in early December, even with the FUN show coming up in a month, might well have been the safest course for the executor. >>
If a potential lawsuit for not selling the coins as soon as possible were an issue, then why would the Corwin portion of Jack's collection be sold at the FUN show in January? On Oct. 15 Stewart wrote:
<< <i>Jack will have a bunch of coins in FUN also because he bought the infamous Scott Corwin collection. The big question is if the coins will be reserved. I have no doubt Heritage will protect Jack's coins. He paid $120,000 for the 26 S. Do you think Heritage will let it go for 50 K ? I doubt it. >>
Concerning Stewart's Oct. 15 post, I think he was incredibly prescient in putting his finger precisely on what he called "the big question." As for his predicted answer, I would just say that the majority of good people want to believe that people are inherently good. To quote William March's The Bad Seed (1954), "Good people are rarely suspicious: they cannot imagine others doing the things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually they accept the undramatic solution as the correct one, and let matters rest there."
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
As far as the coins themselves, the coins brought what they brought, and each stood or fell on its own. End of story.
Personally, I was glad to see an auction that wasn't a "fixed price list" auction set at above market prices.
<< <i>I really don't think a family with that kind of wealth is going to lose a wink of sleep over $400k-$500k, and probably preferred to just get the estate wrapped up as quickly as possible. >>
Actually, that's not so hard to believe.
"Let's just get it over with. What difference does it make how much money the coins sell for? We already have more than enough."
Maybe you really are "right." I hope so.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
Take a GOOD look at the wonderful Heritage images of the recent memorial cents.
I never realized the spotting was so bad on what PCGS grades as an MS67. There are even spots on 68s. I was roll sorting (before I got tired of it) and have many that have fewer spots. Maybe I should bite the bullet and send a few in.
As far as the coins themselves, the coins brought what they brought, and each stood or fell on its own. End of story.
I totally agree.
They are what they are. I think I paid reasonable prices for the coins I won. However, those prices were lower than previous sales.
Jack
<< <i>It is interesting to take a good look at the Heritage Auction results for this sale.
Take a GOOD look at the wonderful Heritage images of the recent memorial cents.
I never realized the spotting was so bad on what PCGS grades as an MS67. There are even spots on 68s. I was roll sorting (before I got tired of it) and have many that have fewer spots. Maybe I should bite the bullet and send a few in. >>
If they're from the 60's or 70's, then forget it. You simply won't get any. Don't go by the Heritage coins. Either the spotting occurred after slabbing or the coins were graded back when PCGS remembered how to use the "7".
1. My son and I had assembled our collection over a six year period, with love and care. In the past two years I had worked with Ira, Jimmy, Dave and Andy to vastly improve the quality of our set. We replaced coins that we felt were below average for the grade with coins that were better than average to PQ for the grade. We were quite successful in doing this.
2. I would say unequivocally in the end that our set consisted of coins that were above average to PQ for over 95% of the wheat portion of our set.
3. Circumstances in the economy and our life forced the need to sell the set. As I had posted in the description of our set it was my intention to keep the set together foreever and pass it on to my son. However, things change and no one can predict everything. My son, now nearly 16 had lost interest in coin collecting that he had in his younger years (moved on to girls and other teenage pursuits).
4. Ira brokered the sale of the set for me to which I am grateful. Ira and Jimmy and Andy and Dave have all been great throughout the years. I appreciate all of their help and knowledge teaching me about collecting lincolns.
5. I did not know who the buyer of the set was at the time. The sale was a blind sale.
6. The set sold at the beginning of August 2008 for approximately $900,000.00 which was almost precisely the then current PCGS market value.
7. I specifically choose not to reholder my coins or pedigree them at any time on the advice of Ira and many other experienced collectors and dealers. I did not want to expose the coins to the elements.
8. We are very sad to see the collection go, and when I learned that Jack Lee had purchased it once the sale was concluded, I was quite happy. Learning of his passing almost immediately therefter was a sad day for us.
9. As an attorney and familiar with probate, I can tell you all that there was and is no law, regulation or other provision that would require an immediate sale of the coins. As others have stated above it is my understanding that Mr. Lee was a multi millionaire. I assume the executors were his family members and even the entire collections value would have no significant meaning to them. Furthermore, I was suprised to learn that Jack's set and my set would be sold at an auction with no lot viewing and no associated convention/show. I was concerned that combined with the worsening economic news and the flood of high grade Lincolns onto the marketplace in a less than desirable sales venue would depress the price of the coins.
10. I have done some careful calculations and I believe that it is fairly accurate to state that the coins that comprised the same grade as mine (as many of my coins have not yet sold apparently, but Jack had coins that matched my grades and perhaps even had duplicates) sold for approximately 68% of the current PCGS market value. This is based on my analysis of the top 50 sales prices of coins that represented about 80% of the overall value of the 250 coin set.
11. For example I had a 1915-S in 66RD. The coin that sold was not mine. However, it sold for $31,050 compared to its market value of $65,000 (I paid $55,000 for mine) -- that represents 48% of market value. The 1917 DDO 66RD that sold was my coin. That coin sold for $28,750. Market value was $42,500. I purchased it in the Dan Close auction for $48,300. It was a stunningly beautiful coin. It fetched only 68% of PCGS market value. My 1922 NoD SR MS63BN was also an incredible coin. I purchased it at the Long Beach auction in February 2007. Andy and Ira both saw that coin and thought it was close to an upgrade to 64BN. I showed it to David Hall personally and he thought it was quite beautiful though not quite an upgrade to the next level. I paid $37,500, the PCGS market value at the time was $40,000 and it sold in Jack's estate auction for $28,750 or 72% of market value.
12. In fact only 7 coins (of the coins that matched my grades) sold for 100% or more of PCGS market value. All of the rest of the top 50 that I examined sold for less and some as low as 28% of market value. Some of the disasters I saw were a 1913-D selling for 35% and then 1917-S selling for 43%.
It is my understanding that many of my coins will be for sale at the FUN auction. I would encourage everyone to take a close look at those coins. Many of them are PQ and quite gorgeous. If you have questions check with Ira and he can render an opinion.
Again, I hope this clears up many misconceptions at least with regard to my set and my sale and my reasons therefore.
Corwin Family Collection
Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection
#1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
<< <i>9. As an attorney and familiar with probate, I can tell you all that there was and is no law, regulation or other provision that would require an immediate sale of the coins. As others have stated above it is my understanding that Mr. Lee was a multi millionaire. I assume the executors were his family members and even the entire collections value would have no significant meaning to them. Furthermore, I was suprised to learn that Jack's set and my set would be sold at an auction with no lot viewing and no associated convention/show. I was concerned that combined with the worsening economic news and the flood of high grade Lincolns onto the marketplace in a less than desirable sales venue would depress the price of the coins.
>>
In light of of the information "setting the record straight" provided by the Corwin Family Collection, in particular their point #9 which is quoted above, I would like to simply reiterate my original post, which was in response to the following:
<< <i>Personally, I think the pre-auction bids look alright. I mean, some of the Lee coins aren't exactly PQ for the grade, as pointed out, but for those that are, the bidding has been brisk ... I think what we're really seeing is an example of how widely varied the prices can be within a particular grade. >>
Strictly in an effort to create a comparable hypothetical, let's just assume for the sake of argument that an experienced collector named Stuart (a fictitious name, unrelated to any actual person, living or dead) decided to sell a set of Lincoln cents worth over a million dollars. What do you think the chances are that Mr. Stuart would choose to sell his coins at Heritage in Dallas with NO reserves, NO floor bidding, in the absence of ANY major coin show, AND with NO previewing of ANY of the coins at ANY major coin show, as opposed to simply waiting until the next month to have Heritage sell the coins at the huge FUN show in Florida? Do you think the chances are much higher than zero? Do you think the coins would likely realize more money in total at the FUN show in January? And if instead the sale was ordered NOT by the imaginary, sophisticated Stuart, but rather by the relatively ignorant (about coins) executor of his estate, WHO would you imagine might possibly persuade Stuart's executor to hold the sale in Dallas in December, and WHY?
Those are all merely rhetorical questions. I'm just wondering, 'cause that's the kind of guy I am. Curious.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
I therefore ask the same question I raised earlier in this thread, who decided to reholder the coins? I am only curious because the ramifications may end up being far reaching and have negative impact on some of the coins that were exposed to the elements for the first time in many years.
Jonathan
Heritage decided to reholder the coins.
Roger - Great point ! The doubling on a 1917 DDO is not that spectacular. The 1936 DDO #1 sold for $23,000.
The doubling on the 1936 is far more pronounced. There were also two other 1917 DDO cents in PCGS ms 66 red that sold for app. $25,000.
Hello Scott - You must have been told that Ira convinced Jack to buy your set for the varieties. You must also
know that your coins will be sold in Long Beach in February.
Stewart
Thanks for the info. I hope when you decide to sell you copper collection you don't let Heritage or anyone else reholder your coins.
Jonathan
<< <i>Heritage decided to reholder the coins. >>
I wonder if there was anything else that Heritage "decided" and, if there was, what might have motivated their choices.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
Wasn't it Heritage that decided to put the Jack Lee Lincoln Cent Collection up for auction in two less than spectacular showcases, Houston in December, and now, according to Stewart, remainder in the February 2009 Long Beach Show? I have never attended the Long Beach Show but have been told that the floor activity in the bourse area is so sparse, “you could roll a bowling ball down one of the aisles and not hit anyone”. Let’s just say I made mistake of having some of my coins auctioned off in one of them in recent years and the results were poor. Thus a lesson I paid for dearly!
Jonathan
“Finest Lincoln Cents & Registry Rarities Star In Heritage's $11 Million Houston Coin Auction
“The #1 All-Time Finest Set of Lincoln Cents ever assembled, by Jack Lee, sold in heated competition at the Official Auction of the Houston Money Show of the Southwest....
“Houston contained three different offerings from the Estate of Jack Lee. Bidders were out in force to contend for Jack's #1 All-Time Finest Registry Set of Lincoln Cents. Lincolns are so important to the market that it difficult to think of a more popular collector series - perhaps only Morgan dollars comes close. For decades, Jack put aside the finest Lincolns he encountered for his personal holdings, and this set was the result. High quality produced high enthusiasm among the bidders. Bidder interest was also high for Jack's Estate Collection coins, as well as additional selections from his inventory. All these coins bear the critical "Ex: Jack Lee" pedigree that reflected Jack's incredibly keen eye. Additional Jack Lee coins will also be included in our January FUN Platinum Night and February Long Beach auctions.”
I have discussed this with Ira and your statement as to why Jack bought my set is not correct. Ira informed me that Jack bought the set because he wanted the inventory.
I am sorry I never had the chance to meet you in person nor see your coins in Baltimore (as I could not make it due to a family conflict). Hope I get the chance to meet you some time in Long Beach, where I plan on dropping by from time to time.
Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection
#1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
It is my understanding that Long Beach is a good venue, although a dealer oriented show. I have attended numerous live auctions in Long Beach and have seen vigorous competitive bidding on Lincolns many times.
Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection
#1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
I am truly sorry if my attempt at humor came across a bit negative. I hope the show turns out to be a big success and these coins reap the value they truly deserve. My own personal choice would have been FUN or a big ANA show, that’s all.
Jonathan
Glad to see you put your set up in the complete category!!
Former Owner of the Corwin Family Collection
#1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cents Collections (1909-Present) at time of Retirement 8-21-08: Date Set, Basic Set, Classic Set and Major Varieties
Collecting Lincolns has been an honor, privilege and an adventure
Wow!! It's been a while since Gerry made his presence known.
Great to hear from you!
Jack
Agreed, thanks Gerry. So now the two greatest collectors of Lincolns have offered comments to the post.
All due respects to the great Jack Lee, but his pedigree means nothing in this series.
Its like buying a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle.
The great Lincoln collections that were assembled through time, with the same skill and patience Jack Lee
assembled silver dollars, cant be compared to the Jack Lee Lincoln collection.
I would love to buy a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle !
And I bet Gerry would also like to buy one.
Stewart
<< <i>
All due respects to the great Jack Lee, but his pedigree means nothing in this series.
Its like buying a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle. >>
Maybe a better analogy would be a baseball signed by Gordie Howe.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Its like buying a hockey puck signed by Mickey Mantle. >>
Maybe a better analogy would be a baseball signed by Gordie Howe.
That works better
I forgot, Stewart is a freakin Yankee fan (sigh) so he'd buy anything signed by the Mick.
I know this is OT, But another thing that drives me crazy is when the media calls every good basketball player out of college "the next Micheal Jordan". !
Who bought the Jack Lee 1955/55 for $34,500 ????
I complained to Heritage that they should have sent the coin back to PCGS. At best one COULD call it a 64 red.
Jack the Knife - Which coins did you buy ? Are you gonna make me find out ?
Stewart
And I bet Gerry would also like to buy one.
What I really would like to buy is a Lincoln cent autographed by Stewart, but I probably couldn't afford it.
Stewart,
I bought a couple
Jack
Edited to add: I didn't buy the 55/55
Stewart raises an interesting point.
When the auction houses send entire collections in for a pedigree label, I would assume that the coins are looked at again for potential upgrades. Would that not also include coins that should be downgraded? Or, are the grades "protected"?
Jack
However, I have heard of strange things happening... like a coin sent in for mechanical reholdering, and then changed from MS63 to PR58... so it would appear that the coins are looked at in some fashion.
-Matt
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>PCGS will pay you for a coin that is sent in for grade review. They will pay the difference between PCGS list values.
However, I have heard of strange things happening... like a coin sent in for mechanical reholdering, and then changed from MS63 to PR58... so it would appear that the coins are looked at in some fashion.
-Matt >>
If you're referring to my instance, it was an 1864 seated dollar going from MS60 to Pf58 when sent in for mechanical error. Oh, and about 6 months of letters and finally a check to cover the difference.