Signed baseballs - Mantle Dimaggio Williams - Authentic?

fmclaug11

I've had these in my collection for some time now and was wondering if they are authentic....Opinions?

storm888

They all look pretty close to right, to me.

I would send them in, if they were mine.

PoppaJ

There are a few characteristics that concern me.

The Mantle ball has quite a few Start/Stop Points; Mantle was a very fluid signer.

The "n" in Mantle is questionable.

The "m" and "a" in DiMaggio don't look right to me.

The Williams sig looks pretty good; I just don't care for the fade.
You might want to use PSA's Quick Opinion or contact a forensic signature expert
via the internet, ie. handwritingexperts.com, before submitting them for grading.

I'm not dissing PSA/DNA, because after all, they are just rendering their opinions, but check out the pics below
of the PSA/DNA DiMaggio items that I saw on eBay recently. Quite a difference! I see a significant conflict of the formation
of vowels and consonants.

I have a Joe D bat, ball, glove, and photo .... all signed by him over a period of 30 years; DiMaggio's sig
did not vary that much.



Please understand, I also am just giving my opinion and, in no way, am I trying
to say that your items are not authentic.

Good luck and I hope they're the real deal!

PoppaJ

airjoedan

Dimaggio's signature changed A LOT from his early playing days to his card show days. In the last 30-40 years of his life it seemed pretty much the same though. "Joe" always looks the same - although he used to be a lot more artistic with his last name, much like his brother Dom. I'm a terrible Mantle signature person - I have an 8x10 that PSA/DNA failed that looks perfect....I fear it must be from Operation Bullpen! Your autographed baseballs don't look bad - but you should probably send them in to find out for sure.

blades3

That's the problem, is the operation bullpen stuff of Mantle and Williams especially, was so good that it's tough to tell. When you fake someone's signature 1000s of times, I would imagine you get pretty good at it. I've personally handled a lot of different stuff from Operation Bullpen through working with the FBI on stories and the Mantle and Williams stuff is especially hard to tell. I'm sure PSA has authenticated some bad stuff and I'm sure they've rejected some good stuff, and that's not a knock on PSA's ability. Spence is pretty good with that stuff because he went to the warehouse and has catalogued the exemplars, most other authenticators haven't (this isn't my opinion, it's what tim fitzsimmons - the lead investigator for the FBI in Operation Bullpen - told me).

fmclaug11

The Mantle ball actually has a tracking number written on the backside of the ball which I had previously tracked down to be from a company called Forensic Document Services (FDS). I had located other Mantle balls with similarly placed tracking numbers written on them and those all had COA from this FDS company. Anyone ever heard of them?

blades3

Uh oh...


http://www.sweetspotnews.com/bullpen.html

FBI's Operation Bullpen hooks network

SAN DIEGO - The FBI's Operation Bullpen has infiltrated and dismantled a network of 20 forgers, authenticators, wholesalers, and retailers who are responsible for the creation and sales of up to $100 million of forged memorabilia, items that are both sports and nonsports-related. Twenty individuals, all from California, are cooperating with federal officials in pleabargaining agreements on a variety of fraud and tax charges.

The forgers are Greg Marino, Angelo Marino; Mike Moses of the Sports Management Group, Universal Authentic Memorabilia and Sports Alley; Mike Lopez of International Sports Marketing in Rosemead, Cal.; David Tabb of Hollywood Dreams, Classic Memorabilia and Hollywood Collectibles, all of Santa Ana, Calif.; and Richard Mitchell of San Diego. Others named by the FBI during a press conference Wednesday, April 12, are Wayne Bray of Sports & Celebrity Authentic Autographs (SCAA), John Marino, Gloria Marino, Kathleen Marino and Angelo Marino; Robyn Moses, a wholesaler; Reno Ruberti, of Universal Authentic Memorabilia; Karen Ruberti; Mike Bowler of Catch a Star, JMC Distributors and J&M Sports Cards of Oceanside, Calif.; Ricky Weimer of Rick's Collectibles in Escondido, Calif.; Sheldon Jaffe of Shelly's Cards in Tustin, Calif.; Richard Laughlin of Framed Images in San Juan Capistrano, Calif.; Michael Tapales of Prime Time Sports Cards in Buena Park, Calif.; Carmen Lombardo of Home Field Advantage in Del Mar, Calif; Jon Hall of Del Mar Sports Cards in San Diego; Lowell Katz of the Beautiful and the Unusual in Long Beach, Calif.; Bruce Gaston of La Jolla Sports Cards in LaJolla Calif; Frosty Goembeske of Frosty's in Fullerton, Calif.; Anthony Marino of Pro Sports Memorabilia in Apple Valley, Calif; and Scott Harris and Mary Lou Harris of Universal Authentic Memorabilia in San Clemente, Calif. In addition, the FBI told Sweet Spot that the operations of the J. DiMaggio Company have been shut down. In addition a significant number of items that were known forgeries carried a certificate of authenticity attributed to Don Frangipani; and Robert Proudy and Jim Bellino of Forensic Document Services (FDS). Forged items were supported by fake or misleading authentication documents. However, no charges have been brought against the latter authenticators.

The FBI confiscated items that made their way to distributors in California, New Jersey, Nevada and Florida, including 10,000 signed baseballs. Sports memorabilia bore faked autographs of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Roberto Clemente, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Tony Gwynn. Other merchandise had fake signatures of Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, Satchell Paige, Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris, Jimmie Foxx, Robin Yount, George Brett, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Junior Seau, Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. The forgery ring was based in Southern California, but authorities believe the merchandise was distributed throughout the nation and outside the United States.

The FBI used undercover agents who posed as distributors of American memorabilia in Asia, thus enabling the FBI to purchase evidence without being forced to sell forged items to the public, the FBI reported. The FBI-created distributors were called Nihon Trading Company in Oceanside, Calif. "The goal of the Undercover Operation was to infiltrate the forged memorabilia market and obtain recorded statements from those individuals who were identified as forgers, authenticators and distributors of fraudulent memorabilia," the FBI reported. All told, the FBI conducted more than 1,000 audio and video tapes of its meetings.

The "conspirators" complained that retailers sold forged memorabilia too cheaply, thus calling attention to this facet of the industry. Another trafficker told an agent that "the Internet is a great method of selling forged memorabilia because it is not policed by anybody," the report said. A dealer added that "by obtaining bogus Certificates of Authenticity, you are buying a scapegoat," the reported continued, adding that the same trafficker told the agent that "he rationalizes selling forgeries to the public by thinking about how good the forged memorabilia makes the customer feel as long as they don't know it is fake."

The investigation revealed that the counterfeiters used ink, writing implements and paper which were produced when the individual being forged was living. To acquire the "old paper," the forgers tore blank pages from old books purchased at thrift stores. The evidence seized during this investigation is being stored in a 10,000 square-foot warehouse.

This story is still unfolding. We will continue to present the hobby's most extensive coverage of this investigation and other investigations online at www.sweetspotnews.com and in the June/July edition and future issues of Sweet Spot.

fmclaug11

Good detective work on the Mantle ball...was already skeptical about it. I didn't pay much of anything for it as it was part of a huge collection I purchased a few years back and I more than made my money back on it...Good to finally know the truth about it. I'll keep it on my ball shelf though as it still looks good.

WinPitcher

"he rationalizes selling forgeries to the public by thinking about how good the forged memorabilia makes the customer feel as long as they don't know it is fake.



lol


Steve

Morgoth

Probably feels about as good as a customers fist hitting that dealers face once he found out his Ruth ball was fake.

DrJ

<< <i>Good detective work on the Mantle ball...was already skeptical about it. I didn't pay much of anything for it as it was part of a huge collection I purchased a few years back and I more than made my money back on it...Good to finally know the truth about it. I'll keep it on my ball shelf though as it still looks good. >>



Not sure why you would keep a fake on the shelf. Autographed balls are not like knock off hand bags for sporting around town. I would throw the ball into the ocean and be done with it.