Matte Proof Lincoln's for the week of 10-1

WaterSport

Whoopi, we are up to 10 this week. Heritage added 2 for the October show and as always, more may appear as that show draws nearer. No RAW coins either, first in a long time. For those of you chattering about starting a Brown set, you got 6 here to choose from.



Till next week.

WS


1909 VDB
N/A

1909
N/A

1910 Raw, Cleaned
Ebay # 190256836573 Closes 10/8
1910 PCGS PR 64 R&B BIN $1250
Ebay # 160289335018 closes 10/13
1910 NGC PR 65 BRN BIN $1650 OBO
Ebay # 280272573704 closes 10/5
1910 PCGS PR 64 BRN $2000 (CAC)
http://www.parkavenumis.com/cents.html
1910 PCGS PR 64 BRN $1795
http://kaminskicoin.com/copper.htm

1911

1911 PCGS PR 65 R&B $2950
http://www.bwrarecoins.com/?category=7

1912

1912 NGC PR 65 BRN $1850 OBO
Ebay # 270281328405 closes 10/5 (SOLD)
1912 NGC PR 65 BRN BIN $1995
Ebay # 290264531932 Ends 10/30
1912 NGC PR 65 BRN
Heritage Auction 10/24

1913

1913 PCGS PR 65 R&B BIN $2750
Ebay # 350104758966
1913 PCGS PR 65 R&B $2750
http://www.bwrarecoins.com/?category=7

1914
N/A

1915
N/A

1916

1916 NGC PR 65 RED
Heritage auction ends 10/24
1916 PCGS PR 66 BRN $20,000
http://www.bwrarecoins.com/?category=7

66RB

RBinTex

I wish Andy would post images.

HdHunter

Rob:
You know why it doesn't bother me that Andy doesn't show images on his site? Because he is so honest in his appraisal of his coins. He will tell you outright if a coin is PQ or average, and stands by his commitment on any coin he sells. When he tells me a coin is of quality, I believe him, and frankly, if not having to engage in an elaborate imaging system, continues to keep his prices down and more favorable to the general public, then I am an even bigger fan. I have purchased coins from others whose images did not accurately portray the coin and have suffered accordingly. I am sure others would share this view.
Jonathan

WaterSport

HdHunter _ Yes, you are a 1000% correct in your statement. Andy asked sometime ago not to have his coins listed on the weekly list as he felt the questioning about the lack of photos was questioning his reputation and integrity (these are my words, not his). While I have tried to be respectful of his request and still deal with this issue in a private matter it will not go away. So for everyone who reads this weekly list Andy is requesting not to have his coins listed. As only the compiler of the list, I am honoring his request. Fact is many of the dealers do not have photographs of the MPL's they are selling. So to single out one of the most reputable dealers is unfair. Rob was good enough to remove the list and I thank him. RB still has not removed his comment after I have asked and that bothers me because I am doing everything I can to keep dealers, sellers and buyers informed. But having people pissed off will only create a negative atmosphere that could spur others to have no part of the list. I do not want this as I feel we have been very helpful to many collectors so far.

WS

dbemike

1910 PR64RB

WaterSport

And we add but another new,raw, and Cleaned 1910 on the Bay.

WS




Text 1910 raw MPL

ambro51

Thats just ashamed about Angeldees....

If I were him I would gladly hire a decent web designer to come up with an administrator friendly picture upload system, and a revised website. With a dedicated photo setup, taking good pictures would be ever so easy. It's not like he has a zillion coins to sell, but what he sells is quality, and should be imaged and marketed as well as possible. I'm sure he would realize increased sales.

You've either got to move with the times or be left behind (even I've learned that, and my business produces one of the most archaic things in the world, daguerreotype cameras). Pictures are worth a thousand words, without a doubt.

RBinTex

"You've either got to move with the times or be left behind ( ... ). Pictures are worth a thousand words, without a doubt."



Why should I (or anyone) agree to NOT include publicly available info (i.e. Andy's web postings/offerings of his coins - NOTE THAT IT WAS NOT I THAT INCLUDED HIS LISTINGS) OR refrain from expressing a desire/wish/hope that a particular sellers site had pictures?

Sounds like censorship & pandering to me.

robec

<< <i>"You've either got to move with the times or be left behind ( ... ). Pictures are worth a thousand words, without a doubt." >>





I got the same message from Bob last week when I posted the same MPLs from so and so's website. I certainly don't understand his not wanting a little free advertisement. Images would be nice. While he does handle premium quality pieces, there may be some toning on the coins that don't fit the flow of coins in your or my collection. An image may eliminate a few questions.



<< <i>Why should I (or anyone) agree to NOT include publicly available info (i.e. Andy's web postings/offerings of his coins - NOTE THAT IT WAS NOT I THAT INCLUDED HIS LISTINGS) OR refrain from expressing a desire/wish/hope that a particular sellers site had pictures?

Sounds like censorship & pandering to me. >>



I agree with your assessment. Why shouldn't a group of collectors be able to discuss and tell each other who has what for sale? It's not like it is a secret. Most all the MPL's listed in this thread are on a public web site.

WaterSport

Your right, its a free society post away, we post any MPL we find elsewhere. Its not pander RB, its about honoring a personal request. Something you obviously have difficulty doing.

WS

lasvegasteddy

awesome job as always there ws...the time you take to do this is beyond commendable

robec

<< <i>awesome job as always there ws...the time you take to do this is beyond commendable >>



I agree with Teddy and will continue to honor your request.

ambro51

...so if in the future Andy has a killer mattie....

the code word shall be



artichoke


then, we will all know to take a look at his site

RBinTex

"Its not pander RB, its about honoring a personal request. Something you obviously have difficulty doing."

Bob,

We all appreciate the time you take to do this. No one here - CERTAINLY NOT I - seems to be questioning your motives (kickbacks/commissions, making it more expensive given the increased publicity of a particular piece to reduce competition, etc.).

That said, first and foremeost, if you are going to honor the role you have seemed to carve out for yourself as a helper of those seeking MPL's it seems to me inconsistent to honor the request of a dealer that publicly posts coins on his website to withold that same info.

I also don't appreciate your left-handed jab at me in the above bolded comment. I have NO difficulty honoring a personal request if it is reasonable.
Unfortunately in this case, Andy's request of you and, exponentially moreso, your request of me and others is not reasonable IN ANY WAY.

A DEALER asking you to NOT post the coins he has already publicly posted on his website (or any other non-confidential venue) IMHO has NO right to ask you - OR ANYONE - to NOT tell whoever else they wish about the said postings here or ANYWHERE.

IMHO, you, acquescing to Andy's request performed (and apparently have been performing on an ongoing basis) an extreme DIS-servise to what we here have at least implicitly been lead to believe was the duty you yourself created by posting what we believed (that you believed) were ALL the MPL's available that you were aware of.

I for one never realized (or would have even guessed) that you were holding back. I for one believed you had OUR (or at least all those seeking &/or interested in buying MPL's) best interests at heart and would NOT allow such a BLATANT conflict of interest - such as a request by a dealer that you withold certain info - to cause you to in fact do so.

What else are you witholding form us? What other dealers asked you to not post their coins in our weekly thread?


And for what it's worth, I think any dealer that thinks in ANY rational way that NOT posting images in this day and age is by any stretch of the imagination OK is IMO some combination of cheap, lazy, incompetent, shortsighted, old fashioned, or a bit of a dinosaur.

Maybe a dealer wouldn't want his coins posted to this thread because they don't want an easily referenced historical record of prices for particular dates/grades, etc.

Did Andy tell you or did you even ask why he didn't want his offerings to be appended to this thread? What did he say? Was his answer anything other than self-serving?

I hope if you ever become a journalist you won't squash a story just because the entity it's about asks you to. I think your duty is to the readers not the subject.

WaterSport

RB and all, Any business owner can do what they want (I sound like a Republican LOL). They are not beholding to me, PCGS or any one here to meet our needs. I have dealers and individuals make request regarding posting and delisting coins all the time. I do not interrogate them, I simply honor their request. A great effort goes into even contacting those dealers first by me to get permission to list a coin. If I get no response, I do not list the coin. Its their business why they do not want a coin listed, or delisted.

WS

Duane

"I wish Andy would post images."
*******************************

I bet you "wish" for world peace as well.....Here’s my opinion on taking cheap shots at Andy about coin *images*. IMHO, to instigate a point on what is known to be a sore subject for another person is just plain mean-spirited and petty. Andy is none of those things. Andy is honest and a reputable dealer. One of the best I know. His word is absolutely beyond reproach. On top of that, he is a kind human being. So he runs a small business, and can’t get coin images of the hundreds of coins he sells? Does he truly hurt any one in any way?

Furthermore, Andy is not a hypoctite. He has never used other people’s coin *images* and numbers and pretended they were his coins, so he could pretend to own an All Time Finest collection.

So why don’t we give an honest decent businessman a break

RBinTex

"A great effort goes into even contacting those dealers first by me to get permission to list a coin. If I get no response, I do not list the coin."

I fail to understand why you ask for permission to list coins dealers have put out to the public as being for sale.

Duane,

"...to instigate a point on what is known to be a sore subject for another person is just plain mean-spirited and petty. Andy is none of those things. Andy is honest and a reputable dealer. One of the best I know. His word is absolutely beyond reproach. On top of that, he is a kind human being. So he runs a small business, and can’t get coin images of the hundreds of coins he sells? Does he truly hurt any one in any way?"

First of all I NEVER knew Andy's taking pictures (or lack thereof) was a "sore subject" - at least not until I had the unmitigated gall to insinuate that I "wished he had images of the coins on his website".

Learn to read and stop implying untruths!

I never inpuned Andy's integrity. Never said he wasn't honest and reputable. Never even implied his word was not beyond reproach. Never said he is not kind. Never said his not imaging coins hurt anyone in any way (except perhaps by implication himself).

You're taking pot shots at me for simply saying that I wished his coins were imaged? This is a hanging offense now? Free speech is out the window? Free expression of thoughts, ideas, and opinions are frowned upon in your twisted world?

I really don't care if Andy is a SAINT. He is still either too lazy or too cheap to image his coins and has offered NO explanation why he doesn't want Bob's weekly thread to include his offerings. Anything else is pure bs. Flame away.

BTW, ANGEL DEES is ANYTHING other than a SMALL business. Their inventory is multi-million. "Small business" got lost in the dust LONG ago.

As of 10/05/08 Angel Dees MPL's For Sale:

1910 PCGS PF64BN $1,795 Attractively toned obverse!
1911 PCGS PF65BN $2,200
1912 NGC PF65BN(PQ) $3,500 Stunning eye appeal!
1913 PCGS PF66RB(PQ) $4,100
1913 PCGS PF65RD(PQ) $3,750
1916 NGC PF67RB $26,000 Pop 2/0; Looks red!

Bob, perhaps an analysis like this for what you post might be herlpful:

Date........ Srvc......... Gr............ Ds............Price........ PCGS....... % > PCGS
1910....... P............. 64........... BN........... 1795....... 1500........ 19.67%
1911....... P............. 65........... BN........... 2200....... 1850........18.92%
1912....... N............. 65........... BN........... 3500....... 1250........180.00%
1913....... P............. 66........... RB........... 4100....... 1850........121.62%
1913....... P............. 65........... RD........... 3750....... 2500........50.00%
1916....... N............. 67........... RB........... 26000..... 25000......For a PCGS Coin

Interesting that NONE are BELOW the PCGS price guide.

Duane

"Free speech is out the window?"

Nope - There's my free speech. Be well.

Bochiman

2 things....

This list needs to include another, on ebay, by Cohodk (unsolicited but it is sooooo nice looking that if I had the funds and was doing a MPL set, I would get it in a heartbeat):

1912 NGC PF66 BN ----- SWEET!


Also, it is nice that folks fight so vehemently for angeldees but I am saddened that when someone "wishes they would have pictures on their site" they get attacked.
You know what? I've never bought from them but probably would. The issue is that I like to see coins and can't always go in person. I am also not going to waste someone's time, if I can help it, nor my time and money by ordering blindly.
Sure, the coin may be technically correct and IN SOMEONE ELSE'S EYES it may have a certain look. Doesn't mean it would fit our/my collection.
I can show you a couple of RB coins, or BN coins, or even RD coins, that could have the same type of description, and same grade, yet folks would prefer one or the other.

In today's day and age, particularly if it is a "sore subject", then not doing digital photographs is rude to any potential customers, imho. Not a shot at them since I have never met/dealt with them. Just a generic statement for anyone that wants to sell online these days.

A web author would be somewhat cheap....today's economy and skillsets and one could probably get away with less than a few grand to set things up.
For photographs.....maybe just do it for coins above a certain amount and again, the outlay could be a few thousand dollars but result in quicker turnover and more sales.

I really don't see a downside except for being stuck in the dark ages and liking it....being resistant to change.

lasvegasteddy

<<<Interesting that NONE are BELOW the PCGS price guide>>>

myself i've never paid below pcgs price or have seem them offered for less

trolling per se maybe but how do coins trade higher in the first place...do people pay more then ask...nah they trend up as the case of matty's

renomedphys

Mountain out of a molehill. Grow Up!

Duane

Bochiman-

There is history there. The subject has been a sore one for AngelDees (an old school honest dealer, and an easy target), and they have been beaten up over the issue. -- certain individuals make seemingly "innocent" but truly antagonistic statements (as you commented on), and are intended to provoke (because these people are fully aware of the history!). FYI: I don't just attack people for making 'innocent' comments.

The truth is, Angel Dees has a very successful practice, and some other dealers get a little jealous and personal, and say "innocent" hurtful things to very nice people - that's what you are witnessing.

Like Matt just wrote, grow up, already!! It's really dumb.

Take it easy.

Duane

Steve

Duane,
I agree with your comments 100%.

Roger.
I know we all have the right to "free speech", but please, let Andy conduct his business as he sees fit. Thanks.

Steve

DMWJR

I have been doing a pretty good job of ignoring threads like this, but Andy is a friend, and I feel compelled to relate what he told me years ago.

I asked him why he didn't put pictures up and he told me this (as close as I recall). He still believes in the personal service a dealer should give a customer. He feels that there is so much a picture can't say, that he would rather you pick up the phone and let him describe the coin, question you about what attributes you favor, and give you his opinion based on your desires. Doesn't matter if it is a $100 coin or a $10,000 coin.

If you have been a customer for any length of time, he will express mail you practically anything in his inventory for review before purchase, and has never said a word to me when I return a coin I didn't like. (In those instances, I try to cover his postage, even though he never asks)

That's his style and approach, and I for one appreciate it. The coin biz has become too impersonal in many ways.

PerfectCoins

Duane

Are you familiar with the word "libel"? Congratulations, you may have your ticket pulled after one post - that may be a record!

lasvegasteddy

as sadness befalls this weeks purity of watersport...hopefully the mods remove this post completely and bams perfectcoins out of no class added to pcgs by him being a member here

Duane

Ted-

It's true. This string is intended to be WS doing a favor for the MPL heads.

The people with the problems and wishes re Andy should *privately* share their counter-productive 'opinions'. A public forum is totally inappropriate for this sneaky 'sharing' of inflammatory attacking of a member, IMHO.

Duane

RBinTex

"It's true. This string is intended to be WS doing a favor for the MPL heads."

My point EXACTLY! Then why hold back info without informing us (complete lack of full disclosure) that info was in fact being held back? I don't like my news filtered or censored - certainly not at the request of the "subject of the story".

If YOU know about an MPL for sale than I (i.e. WE) want to know about it as well. Or at the VERY least, name the dealers that have asked you to NOT post their coins here (although IMO they have NO RIGHT for you - or anyone - to honor that request).

Bob still hasn't answered why he feels he needs dealers permission to post coins in this thread that have already been held out to the public as being for sale.

"The people with the problems and wishes re Andy should *privately* share their counter-productive 'opinions'. A public forum is totally inappropriate for this sneaky 'sharing' of inflammatory attacking of a member,"

Duane, your lack of grammatical skills not withstanding, you are quite the twister of words and creator of unsubstantiated assertions!
How is stating that one "wished Angel Dees posted images" a). counter productive, b). innappropriate for a public forum, or c). the inflammatory attacking of a member (Andy doesn't even bother to post here)?

Also, your implications aside, I NEVER knew this was a "sore subject" (EVER) until this incident. But given the way you and some others have reacted via your summarily assuming this wasn't in fact the case, it won't be the last time I bring it up.

p.s. perfectcoins, you are an idiot. Go crawl back under the rock you came from. We deal with facts and opinions here. Not (as some seem to like) unsubstantiated assertions that lack proof to back them up (thus the definition - pardon the redundancy).

robec

That's an AWESOME first and hopefully ONLY post. You are an IDIOT.

renomedphys

If you guys like, you can use unsubstantiated rumors to attack me.