Are Clashed Dies a Mint Error

seemyauction

Inquiring minds want to know

GoldenEyeNumismatics

If they should be considered anything, it should be as a "variety"

Broadstruck

Pcgs has designated Clashed Dies as Mint Errors on their inserts.

IGWT

<< <i>If they should be considered anything, it should be as a "variety" >>


"Errors" account for all kinds of varieties, e.g., repunched dates, doubled dies, and misplaced dates. These errors that occur during the die preparation process are reflected on all coins struck with that die. A die clash, in comparison, occurs during the striking of the coin. Only coins struck with that particular die after the clash will show the damage. For this reason, I tend to think of clashes as a die stage, not a die variety, even though both are the result of an “error.” The same holds true for coins that are struck with dies that are polished to remove damage, like the 3-leggers.

STONE

Not to me they aren't, they are just a result of coining.

To me, an error is more of a DDO/DDR, rim clip, broadstruck, etc.

commoncents05

Variety, not an error.

-Paul

PerryHall

Some mint errors are also considered varieties. DDOs, DDRs, die clashes, overdates, overpolished dies, etc are mint errors since the mint did not intend to create these coins. Since they involve the dies, they are also varieties.

SilverEagles92

I'd say that by definition they are mint errors ie. "errors" at the "Mint."

MrEureka

I could argue this one either way. It's a matter of semantics. But my preference would be to not classify coins from clashed dies as Mint errors.

Similarly, I would prefer not to call coins with major cuds "Mint Errors".

sumdunce

Considering how diligent the mint is in keeping such coins from being produced (grinding dies, replacing dies, etc...), I would say that they are released in error.

I vote yes.



S

RWB

"Clashed dies," or "blanked dies" as the 1900 mint used to call them, result from mechanical failure during striking. What they are called is up to those who understand how they are made and enjoy collecting them.

Why not call them “sintered” just for the sake of ignorance?

GrumpyEd

I'd call clashed dies "die states".

As a long time variety nut I think:

Die Varieties are on the die from the time the die was made incuding punching the MM.
(that's DDOs, DDRs, RPMs, etc)

Errors are something that's unique to the coin being struck or the planchet before striking.
(that's off centers, clips, wrong planchets, etc)

Die states are something that shows on a certain die but only in certain die states.
(that's clashes, gouges, CUDs, chips, over polishing)

Then we have a few oddball things we like to call varieties but are not on the die from it being made (so they are more like die states)but still are often thought of as varieties.
(that's 3 leg buffs, 22 plain cents)

A tough one to classify is the high/low leaf quarters. They may be die states but we can not prove the die struck a coin before the gouges (if it did) so it's an odball but is often thought of as a variety.

The 1922 plain is another oddball, they break it down when grading into 3 dies. But experts say it's the same die when the D was getting filled then when it was polished away completely and the reverse die was swapped with the stronger rev die. You should be able to find a 1922-D from the SAME die before the D was filled in. So I think it was a mistake to give it different die numbers since it's the same die being collected in different states.

You can call everthing above a mint error but that term is too vague to be useful.

Type2

Yes,No I dont know. but I have this one.

SilverEagles92

<< <i>I'd call clashed dies "die states". >>


I disagree with that. In my opinion, the state of the die is a function of the wear and tear the die has obtained from numerous strikes to planchets under high pressure. A die clash does not happen under normal circumstances. If everything goes 100% correctly, there would be no clashed dies.

GrumpyEd

<< <i>If everything goes 100% correctly, there would be no clashed dies. >>



I agree in a way but the mint does not assume everything is 100% correct and they don't scrap every die after a clash, they just polish them so thinking of it that way it's part of the die's wear. If you look at older Lincolns you often can see they have been clashed/polished several times. So I think of it as part of the die state like a marker that shows in a certain state.

Almost every die will get clashed in it's life but some are stronger or you happen to get a coin that was struck after the clash and before the next polishing.

Here's one before they polished it away:

SilverEagles92

Well, even in your definition you state:

"Die states are something that shows on a certain die but only in certain die states."

So, by your definition, die clashes cannot be called a die state. A clash can happen at any time during the minting process.

GrumpyEd

That's part of the problem, no definitions easily cover every aspect of this.
LOL

Maybe marker of a stage within a die state fits better?

Another different similar clash can happen at any time but it's not the same clash.

errormaven

Some would classify them as die varieties. Others would classify them as die errors. Whatever overarching category they fall under, they are the result of mechanical failure and not a normal or expected result of the coining process.

Type2

This is a befor and after polishing pic. Out of the same roll.

GrumpyEd

So would that be:

Same die state but next stage?

Type2

I look at it this way if it's not supose to be that way then it's a Error but if they left it that way then it's a die state. But that is just me.

BECOKA

They are more of an error than a variety.

To me a variety is a change to the die where a whole batch of coins are affected. The clash is just because of to much force.

Haskett

Hi all,

From what I've learned, the differences between varieties and errors has been an ongoing issue for many years. The main difference is when the anomaly occurs. A variety happens during the hubbing process, such as when the dies are being made. Errors occur during the striking process, such as the die clash, mechanical doubling, clips, strikethroughs and the like. I vote error since it was a mistake and not intended to be that way.

Richard

sumdunce

WOW!

Very nice clashed die struck coins. Makes me wish I had kept my broken moon Ike dollar I had years ago.



S

ModernDollarNut

The IKE GROUP has expended a lot of time and energy on die-clashed Ikes and our present thinking is well laid out in several articles on that topic available on our Web Site and on its Forum,

IKE GROUP WEB SITE

Our web site is growing and improving rapidly to the point where it is now ready for prime time. The baby has been born, spanked and is now walking around in diapers beating its chest and making a lot of noise.


Many valid observations in this thread, to which I'll add a couple that may also have validity:
- die-clashed Ikes are not Design Varieties, by definition. Wiles has several non-Bicentennial CB die-clash peg legs listed as ODV's because he has yet to recognize they are all die-clashed die-abraded peg legs.
- die-clashed Ikes are not "varieties" with the possible exception of specific repaired Ike dies that take on a recurrent and recognizable image like the 74-D "Major peg leg" and the 76-D T1 "Off at the Knees" peg leg". As pointed out above, these are somewhat reminiscent of the 3-legged Buffalo.
- die-clashed Ikes are "die-state coins" as they are all unique due to the different abrading techniques applied by the different die-setters and because the Ike die faces were neither perfectly flat nor uniformly off-flat (basined) and combined with the slop in the Columbia presses the actual clash images vary a lot.
- die-state peg legs are difficult to catagorize as they are the result of purposeful die abrasion but are an accidental, unintended result, like the "Clipped E". But "die-state' is probably the best term as "error" just seems to be over-kill?.
- so, die-clashed Ikes are not errors with the exception of the VERY rare un-abraded clashed Ike. IMHO once an error is corrected one is dealing with a die-state situation.
- die-state Ikes, for the most part are difficult to handle in terms of their DIE STAGE, that is, where a given Ike is in the sequence of events from initial un-abraded clash, to abraded, to any subsequent die-clash, and so on. It just doesn't work well since there are so many die-clashed Ikes, 99.999% in the abraded stage .

If I have confused, please check out our Web Site and the articles specifically addressing clashed-die Ikes. Rob

GrumpyEd

Rob,

I agree with everything you said.
Very well put!

OKbustchaser

No, die clashed coins are NOT errors. On the contrary, they are EXACTLY what the mint intended to produce when a planchet was struck by that set of dies during the time frame after the clash occurred and before the clash was lapped away. A coin error occurs on THAT PARTICULAR COIN not on all coins struck by a set of dies in a particular stage of their use.