$8,000 by 2012

renman95

That tagline would certainly get my attention. This is not from any headline that is credible. It's from me. And I will explain how I got here.

In the 1970's as a YN I saw gold per ounce go from the $30's to low hundreds and then to a paradigm-type shift to $850.

That number back then was not fathomable. This is a mental exercise. VW's were advertised at $2,995 in the early 70's.
My parents bought a house for $19,000 in SoCal and my dad made $14,000 per year. That same house would be $400,000 even in todays market...if there was a buyer.
A safe minivan cannot be had for $19,000 today.

So, I think now we've reached a point in economic history where there needs to be another paradigm shift in valuing gold in light of todays credit-Hiroshima and energy-Hiroshima and other Hiroshimas.
So, I pick an outrageous number like $8,000. Well, not so crazy actually. We were nearly at $1,050 this summer. Our credit crisis over this year and the next 5 years could easily devalue our dollar 3 or 4 fold.
Ten, 15 or 20 cents on the current devalued dollar.

I think most here can agree that this current credit issue being solved by our elected "giants" isn't the last issue. There are more "issues" coming that are more interconnected to main street than Wall Street. If there is a visible run of the banks on CNN et al., the beginning of the end is at hand. The influence of these elected giants may actually harm any recovery and prolong our misery like FDR did in the thirties.

There are many more "derivative" issues to come.

So, what would be your speculative price of gold per ounce when the American economy absolutely fails due to lax regulation, poor bills, partisanship, untrustworthy borrows and lenders, the handling by "giants" and their buddies, the bankers, trying to protect their interests over the interests of we the people? Dire as it seems, it almost seems to be required to get rid of these "issues" and start over.

I'm just sad that my children will not see the America that I grew in that can help me, a first-gen-immigrant, propel to heights I never dreamed were possible.

We are living in a time where our children may not have the same standard of living as their parents.

Ren

TomB

I think there is precious little chance that our children will have as high a standard of living, in general, as we have had.

57loaded

ren, maybe

my only response is that gold should be over $2000 today if you are comparing past performance of other assets, and we're not even half there, now so there are other forces of socio-economic and political nature to factor in this carzy mess.

is the evolution and/or corruption of a fiat based world economy to blame?

if you are right the St Gaudens HR offering from the mint next year will be a bargain and a beauty! (just to keep on topic)

DoubleEagle59

I agree with you that gold will probably reach this price at the height of the PM bull cycle.

I've mentioned it before, but the signal that the height has been reached is when the Dow equals the price of gold. It's happened many times before and will happen again. In fact, I'm thinking now, the price of gold may overshoot the Dow, since in this 'cycle' we've had such an artificial, propped up stock market boom, that the reverse, when it happens, will be just as strong.

Gold $8000, Dow 8000.......Gold $4000 Dow 4000....who knows? ..but I certainly wouldn't doubt it happening.

dbcoin

with respect to kids lives not beng as good as ours:

My childhood

- had chores. Cut grass, shovel snow, clean house, etc
- no color tv and video games. 1 20 year old black and white tv. I was the channel changer; "Get up and put on chanel 5 !!"
- got one small present at Christmas time
- family had 1 crappy car
- my house was a 1200sqft hovel but I didn't know it. Had 1 bathroom for 6 people and 3 bed rooms were 10x10. No central air.
- we add spaghetti 3 times a week cause it was cheap
- if we went out for dinner once a month it was alot and it was to McDonalds
- walked 1 mile to school in all weather. Schools were old and not air conditioned. 1 room, maybe 2 teachers, 3 sports teams
- wore hand me down clothes and bought our "new" clothes at the Salvation Army
- vacation was a weekend trip to our 'rich" uncle's house in the "country"


My kids childhoods

- chores? yeah, right dad
- color tv's in every room. Xbox, Wii while Gamecube sits in closet
- dozens of presents at Christmas and birthdays
- 2 cars, 1 new, 1 used. I'm the chaufer
- 2500 sqft house, finished basement, rooms 15 x 12, 2.5 baths for 4 people, central air, heated in ground pool
- if we have spaghetti once week its too much
- we eat out 2 or 3 times a week
- walk to school? Are you kidding? Walk anywhere? Are you kidding? Schools have pool, Wifi, new science labs, music rooms, orchestra pit, auditorium, specialized teachers for every subject, dozens of sports and clubs, counselors.
- new clothes every year and we give away our "used" clothes to the Salvation Army, some still with tags on them.
- 1 week to the shore every year and 1 week to some nice spot every year. I was never on a plane until I was in my 20's. My kids have been to Hawaii, Colorado, California, Florida, Seattle and NW territories, Canada.
- IPods, cell phones now "mandatory"

I could go on.

Yeah, our kids lives 'suck'. If you value education, you can still make it. Problem is, no one wants to work at school any more.

PS - my kids "jobs" are to get A's in school and they do. I think they can still have a nice life but it won't come as easy.

DoubleEagle59

I think TomB may be referring to our children's children.

My children are 19 and 17 (children no more!)

And I do firmly believe that their children will not have as high a standard of living as myself and my children.

asin

dbcoin we must of been neighbors and lived on the same side of the train tracks.

roadrunner

dbcoin, that lifestyle you describe of the past 20 years, and more so in the last 10 years, was due solely to living off cheap overseas labor and goods. In other words we exported our inflation overseas and never saw it return....until today. Those nations financed our "borrowing to the hilt" lifestyles. It's over now. We will never see such a thing again for our citizens with the possible exception of a futuristic paradigm shift in the world's energy or agriculatural systems (ie shift away from oil and nearly unlimited food sources).

roadrunner

dbcoin

roadrunner, I invest in gold but don't have your disdain for humanity in general.

When things are at their worst, we are at our best. Things need to decline a little for it to spur us on and make things better for future generations. All things go in cycles. The financial debt cycle appears at its end. A new cycle will emerge.

roadrunner

dbcoin, the fact that we benefited to a great extreme off foreign nations for the last 30 years has nothing to do with anyone's "disdain for humanity." It certainly doesn't even say that as a country we planned on that result or meant to take advantage of anyone. The USA had the world's reserve currency, most of the gold, and the soundest economy on earth. The fact is that it happened, and the current outcome is explainable as well (higher inflation being exported back to us). These are economic facts, "not disdain for humanity in general." Reserve currency or not, no nation cannot live beyond its means and debt forever without severe consequences. The fact they we went as long is a tribute to our financial "ingenuity."

You read far too much into threads. But for what it's worth, I have little confidence in our politicans or bankers to do the right things. I've felt that way since the mid-1990's. If that's "disdain for humanity in general," mea culpa.

For what it's worth, the financial debt cycle is in the 2nd inning. At best we've waded through 5-20% of the unseen debt out there. That means another 5 to 20 $700 BILLION bail outs if things go well. I tend to think it will be on the higher side of that - $15+ TRILL.

We'd better be at our very best for another few years because there are hundreds of TRILLIONs of toxic securities to account for. The mortgage crisis is just the warning shot. $700B will only cover the ante at the poker game that just started. But we'll need a lot more money to maintain a stake in this game. From a total dollar standpoint there is little you or I can do to help salvage this mess other than to write our elected officials. Less than 600 people will be calling the shots on where our financial future lies. Ironically, these very same 600 people got us to this precipice.

roadrunner

DoubleEagle59

<< <i>dbcoin, the fact that we benefited to a great extreme off foreign nations for the last 30 years has nothing to do with anyone's "disdain for humanity." It certainly doesn't even say that as a country we planned on that result or meant to take advantage of anyone. The USA had the world's reserve currency, most of the gold, and the soundest economy on earth. The fact is that it happened, and the current outcome is explainable as well (higher inflation being exported back to us). These are economic facts, "not disdain for humanity in general." Reserve currency or not, no nation cannot live beyond its means and debt forever without severe consequences. The fact they we went as long is a tribute to our financial "ingenuity."

You read far too much into threads. But for what it's worth, I have little confidence in our politicans or bankers to do the right things. I've felt that way since the mid-1990's. If that's "disdain for humanity in general," mea culpa.

For what it's worth, the financial debt cycle is in the 2nd inning. At best we've waded through 5-20% of the unseen debt out there. That means another 5 to 20 $700 BILLION bail outs if things go well. I tend to think it will be on the higher side of that - $15+ TRILL.

We'd better be at our very best for another few years because there are hundreds of TRILLIONs of toxic securities to account for. The mortgage crisis is just the warning shot. $700B will only cover the ante at the poker game that just started. But we'll need a lot more money to maintain a stake in this game. From a total dollar standpoint there is little you or I can do to help salvage this mess other than to write our elected officials. Less than 600 people will be calling the shots on where our financial future lies. Ironically, these very same 600 people got us to this precipice.

roadrunner >>



Very well said roadrunner. I agree 100%

The only thing that can keep things running (and I won't use the word 'smoothly') is if foreign nations are willing to keep financing the US debt.

Eventually, once they decide not to, they will realize a global market without the US economy is a better scenario than holding trillions of worthless US dollars.

THEN the sh*t will truly hit the fan!!

TomB

My children are pre-kindergarten, ages two-years and four-years old. Their lives do not mirror the lives that are described for dbcoin's children. Additionally, they won't mirror those lives because I am their father and as such my wife and I have the responsibility to raise them as we see fit and our decisions will not be the same as dbcoin. Will their lives be terrible? I sincerely hope not. However, my wife and I both have earned PhD degrees in the sciences, have never lived the "high life" and neither of us has ever been foolish with our resources; but I think our children will be hard pressed to match our lifestyle for both quality of life and when we were able to afford that quality. Might they have gadgets that we never had? Certainly. Might they face higher absolute tax rates, lower relative buying power for their salaries and a more difficult economy? I think so.

The lives of your kids, dbcoin, are your responsibility as they grow and if you think they have it too easy, are pampered or do not appreciate what they have then you know, too, who is at fault.

COINB0Y

Peter Hitchens writes one heck of a Story on China's Quest for Metals

They need Metal this bad!

fastrudy

Well said, Tom B. I think that the children of today are best served by getting a good education. Far too many of them think the 'system' will take care of them. I know far too many children who think that they can do as they please in life, and when somebody screws up, they can sue them and 'have it made'. Taught high school science from 1972 to 2005....I have seen thousands of children and I base these opinions on experience.

dbcoin

Tom

My kids are straight A honor students. Top 10 in their classes of over 600. I have trust funds for them and they espire to go to Princeton and Harvard. Are they pampered? Yeah, and I'm happy fo them. Your kids are too young to give you any crap except in their diapers. Talk to me in 10 or 12 years. Then you'll understand.

I'm an MS in the Sciences myself. I don't think, I do.

TomB

My children may generally be too young to give me grief, but this does not describe their lifestyle-



<< <i>- chores? yeah, right dad
- color tv's in every room. Xbox, Wii while Gamecube sits in closet
- dozens of presents at Christmas and birthdays
- 2 cars, 1 new, 1 used. I'm the chaufer
- 2500 sqft house, finished basement, rooms 15 x 12, 2.5 baths for 4 people, central air, heated in ground pool
- if we have spaghetti once week its too much
- we eat out 2 or 3 times a week
- walk to school? Are you kidding? Walk anywhere? Are you kidding? Schools have pool, Wifi, new science labs, music rooms, orchestra pit, auditorium, specialized teachers for every subject, dozens of sports and clubs, counselors.
- new clothes every year and we give away our "used" clothes to the Salvation Army, some still with tags on them.
- 1 week to the shore every year and 1 week to some nice spot every year. I was never on a plane until I was in my 20's. My kids have been to Hawaii, Colorado, California, Florida, Seattle and NW territories, Canada.
- IPods, cell phones now "mandatory" >>



They pick up their toys, pick out their clothes and put their dirty clothes away. We own one TV and it is rarely on. We do not own a Wii, an Xbox, a Gamecube or any similar device. They get a few presents, which I expect will increase as they get older, but not dozens of toys. All their toys are bought secondhand. All their clothes are bought secondhand. Heck, I still wear clothes I bought in the 1980s. My wife and I each have a car and mine is pushing 300,000 miles at the moment. It will be driven until it is in the ground just like my previous car failed with similar mileage. We don't have a finished basement or an inground or above ground pool. We eat pasta four or five nights each week and if my children do not like dinner then they do not eat. We go to Applebee's or the local pizza place once each week, that's it. We do not take vacations where we are required to travel. Our time off is spent locally and our kids go to local museums, fairs, festivals, aquariums and zoos. Neither my wife nor I own an Ipod and we do not use cell phones. Indeed, our single phone in the house is used only one day each week and that is so our kids can talk to their grandparents.

I assume you control the purse strings for your children. That, in combination with the values you instill in them, should go a long way toward describing their lifestyle and outlook. I would like to help my children if they decide to go to college, but I will not pick institutions for them and will require that they shoulder the majority of the financial responsibility of such an endeavor just like my wife did with her earned scholarships and fellowships and how I did by working 30+ hours each week during college before earning my own fellowships. We value education and we value earning what we have.

dbcoin

talk to me in 10 to 12 years

I hope they turn out to be great kids but I have seen many good 2 years old turn onto heroin addicted 16 year olds. Comparing a 2 year year old to a teenager is hard to do. Your kids view as as God right now. That will change.

As far as your life style, to each their own. I had that life style growing up and I am glad I have better now. Heck, even poor people I know have better life styles now than I had growing up.

dude, you need to spend some money. Sell some of those shiny metal objects and buy your kids some toys. Go on vacation. sheesh.

BBN

I think it will be our kids. We're just starting to repeat a cycle from 1929. We're going to have to live tighter, people aren't going to be able to get ridiculous loans for homes worth 8-10x of their annual income, people will begin to save more and use their credt cards less. If there's any silver lining that comes from this it's people will become more frugal, little Conner and Kayley won't be carted all weekend every weekend to play three different peewee sports

COINB0Y

dude, you need to spend some money. Sell some of those shiny metal objects and buy your kids some toys. Go on vacation. sheesh.

Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I believe Tom is right on.

To each, his own happiness.

Nysoto

Interesting discussion on children. I worked my way through college, but 25 years ago it was much easier to do this. I hope to finance my children's college through 4 years - graduate school will be on their own (unless they can convince dad to sell his coins!). Children today have much more material things, on average. I do not expect my children to be able to own a nice house on 2 acres 10 miles from Seattle on their own, as I do. When I was growing up, it was typical for an average one income family to have a nice house in Seattle (now $750K) and a beach house for the weekend. Forget the beach house, unless you have a spare million. So there are trade offs, but college and real estate will be much more difficult for my children, and those long road trip vacations will be much more expensive.

Yes, things change when your kids reach 14! My oldest daughter is 14, and she is more stubborn than I am. She is doing well in school, but from this point on she will make most of her own decisions.

dbcoin

Exactly, Nysoto. I don't have kids in college but my friends who do tell me forget about working for your kids. It is too competitive. Their job needs to be school. If you're spending $30 large or more per year, you don't want your kid waiting tables and getting B's. You want them getting A's for that money. When we were going to college you could work your way through school and maybe graduate with $10 large in debt. Now its over $100 thousand in debt. Not for my kids.

It starts getting competitive in Kindergarten. If your kids haven't become familar with a computer before age 5 with all kinds of interactive games, they get put in the pod with the slower kids. No kidding. It's that competive.

To each his own. I don't know where the guy who eats spaghetti 5 times a week and denies his family what I would consider to be modern needs lives, but it isn't near me. And I wouldn't want my wife and kids in a car with 300 thousand miles in it. Probably doesn't have ABS, or air bags. Might not even have seat belts. I don't know what state he lives in, but in NJ it wouldn't pass the emissions restrictions either.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i> And I wouldn't want my wife and kids in a car with 300 thousand miles in it. Probably doesn't have ABS, or air bags. Might not even have seat belts. I don't know what state he lives in, but in NJ it wouldn't pass the emissions restrictions either. >>

When I sold my Honda, it had 320,000 miles on it. No, it didn't have ABS or airbags, but it had seatbelts and passed every emission test it ever had. In southern California.

"Lots of Miles" doesn't necessarily equal "Piece of Junk."

secondrepublic

<< <i> To each his own. I don't know where the guy who eats spaghetti 5 times a week and denies his family what I would consider to be modern needs lives, but it isn't near me. And I wouldn't want my wife and kids in a car with 300 thousand miles in it. Probably doesn't have ABS, or air bags. Might not even have seat belts. I don't know what state he lives in, but in NJ it wouldn't pass the emissions restrictions either. >>



There's nothing wrong with being frugal. It sure beats the alternative that a lot of Americans are living, of an Escalade and BMW in the drive way, maxed out credit cards, no savings, interest only mortgage, etc. etc. etc. The material things you give kids aren't as important as spending time with them, reading to them, etc. The material possessions won't make them any smarter or better in school, but reading to them and taking them to museums, aquarium, cultural events probably will.

fc

typical conversation of older people stating the good old days are
gone. get off my lawn. in my day we walked uphill to school both
ways with no shoes.

every darn time.. no matter the generation the old timers were wrong.

you would think they would notice this trend of being wrong every
time... but no. it is a natural reaction of old people to bash the youth
and their strange ways. i at 33 am catching myself for doing it when
i walk through the mall and chuckle at how i have changed with age.

i was those youths 18 years ago...

sigh.

----

as for gold being 8000... it is possible but i would not take the
bet in my lifetime. tis a fool's bet.

how long did the hyper inflation last in germany? a decade of people's
money being lost.. a huge war they lost in a spectacular way.

gee. you think the country would just plain suck right? after all that
misery.

nope! not even a full generation later they are back to a very nice
country with a high standard of living.

american soldiers related to the germans the most in WWII. i wonder
why?

anyway.

mhammerman

"The material possessions won't make them any smarter or better in school, but reading to them and taking them to museums, aquarium, cultural events probably will."

That's right!

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>how long did the hyper inflation last in germany? a decade of people's
money being lost.. a huge war they lost in a spectacular way.

gee. you think the country would just plain suck right? after all that
misery.

nope! not even a full generation later they are back to a very nice
country with a high standard of living. >>

The ones who made it through the war alive, anyway. I guess it sucked for the millions who didn't make that list, though.

roadrunner

If the average American lived well within their means, we would not be in this situation, period. There are too many gadgets and everything has to be new and with a designor name brand. That's bs. Too many bought into the free lunch society.

how long did the hyper inflation last in germany? a decade of people's money being lost.. a huge war they lost in a spectacular way. gee. you think the country would just plain suck right? after all that misery. nope! not even a full generation later they are back to a very nice country with a high standard of living.

One year of hyperinflation is more than enough to destroy an economy. Weimer inflation lasted several years as I recall. I wouldn't want to wish the hyper-inflation of Zimbabwe on any country - not even a month of it. At 1,000,000% inflation in May, things drop pretty quick there. They are homing on 50,000,000% today. Forget the month of hyperinflation, most of us would be broke in one day unless you held hard assets. Once a hyperinflation gets going, and it could start overnight following any single catostrophic event, it rolls very fast. To those that toiled during the Weimar years, I bet it did suck, for quite some time. It was one of the primary reasons that helped to bring Hitler to power. Now that really sucked.

roadrunner

ProofCollection

I think we will have to or will end up returning to a period of time where a new car will be a big deal and kind of rare, and not everyone has the latest and greatest gadgets and conveniences.

renman95

<< <i>

<< <i>how long did the hyper inflation last in germany? a decade of people's
money being lost.. a huge war they lost in a spectacular way.

gee. you think the country would just plain suck right? after all that
misery.

nope! not even a full generation later they are back to a very nice
country with a high standard of living. >>

The ones who made it through the war alive, anyway. I guess it sucked for the millions who didn't make that list, though. >>



Oh, boy. Where do I start. So many interesting tangents have glommed onto this thread. I like it!

First: I would say that most everyone posting here understands the value of a dollar and is hard working and enjoys the freedoms bestowed by our Constitution et al. So, if you have children of any age, these attributes to some degree have shined upon them. Some more than others. Our (posters') kids are not the norm.

I am in the camp between being frugal and having Escalades and BMW's in the garage. By the shear nature of my profession travel is education. I have never regretted a single quid spent on travel. I, and my family, have traveled well at times and have traveled in the nitty-gritty. An isolated education of a campus is not a full education. It's not until you explore something like +-90 degrees in longitude and/or +-45 degrees in latitude do you fully appreciate your education and heritage.

My 4 children are in private school but work at home doing chores. We have some land that they are learning to appreciate. None of my 4 have a TV in their room. After school it's rest, homework, chores, dinner, and reading during school nights but not necessarily in that order. Education, history primarily, is most important for my kids. A hard work ethic, bestowed upon me by my father is right there with education. And, lastly, having a safe-place at home where no one is judged...because it's a cruel world out there.

Second: my parents "escaped" the iron curtain and emigrated to the Americas. My father's life was still tough throughout his years. He lost his culture, a war, and his country and that was difficult for him. But, as a child, I knew that he had more than he ever would have had, had he stayed in Germany. I also knew the stuff didn't compensate for his loss.

Third: the hyperinflation lasted from mid-1922 through November 1923. Wholesale Price Index rose from 2.6% in Jan 1919 to 726,000,000,000% in November of 1923! Why? Well, there never is one answer. It's a multiple of faults. One was reparations after WWI which depreciated the mark against other currencies. New socialist leaders promised the people all types of bounties. Inflation stabilized in 1920 but the government kept issuing new money. The currency in circulation increased by 50%. By May 1921 inflation started up again and by July 1922 prices had risen 700% due to new currency. July 1922 the phase of hyperinflation started. No confidence in the money. Price indices rose quicker than the printing press. By 1923, 300 paper mills were working top speed and 150 printing companies had 2000 presses going day and night turning out currency. Labor and its unions were destroyed. Shops were empty. Workers who worked were paid three times a day because of the change in currency. Food riots broke out. The middle class sold everything. By the miracle of the Rentenmark, the depreciation was halted, business revived and the inflation spree halted...probably....everything was exhausted to what it was worth.

What caused the inflation?
Inflation caused by the government issuing a flood of new money, causing prices to rise. As I've researched this for the above paragragh I came upon an interesting quote..."it would be wrong to think that eveyone was opposed to inflation. Many big business leaders accepted it cheerfully. It wiped out their debts."

Finally, by October 1923, 1% of government income came from taxes and 99% from the creation of new money.

Bingo.....$8,000 per ounce of gold in the USA!

We have three wars to pay for... Social programs. Printing press running a mock. Big business and Bernake that think and have studied that inflation is better than deflation. And poor leadership.

Ren

dac076

Interesting thread! A few random thoughts:

1) My kids have it better than I did, but are certainly less spoiled than their peers (a fact they like to remind me of frequently)
2) The first time I heard "You will be the first generation of Americans to have a lower standard of living than your parents" was when I was around 10 years old. My teacher was wrong then, and I believe that opinion is still wrong.
3) Balance - yes there's nothing wrong with being frugal, and more people should live within their means. I drive older high-mileage cars too, but Dude, take a vacation!
4) Those 2- and 4-year old angels will indeed be 14 and 16 some day. Trust me, they *will* change.
5) I have no clue what the price of gold will be in 2012, but I would bet money that it will be higher than now, as will the stock market and the price of my favorite beer.

secondrepublic

<< <i> As I've researched this for the above paragragh I came upon an interesting quote..."it would be wrong to think that eveyone was opposed to inflation. Many big business leaders accepted it cheerfully. It wiped out their debts."

We have three wars to pay for... Social programs. Printing press running a mock. Big business and Bernake that think and have studied that inflation is better than deflation. And poor leadership. >>



That's exactly what makes me nervous. When inflation appears to be the path of least resistance to getting out of our overwhelming, unmanageable debts, the political and business classes will see to it that we have inflation. And lots of it. Once inflation seems like a way out of our problems, it will be the way things happens. It won't be epic Germany-in-the-1920s inflation, but it will still be real, tangible inflation that erodes savings and the currency (as well as debts).

StopYurWhining

"I think there is precious little chance that our children will have as high a standard of living, in general, as we have had. "

lets get real. Maybe they will have to suck it up and not have an I phone and a PSP and a new computer every year. TIme to suck it up and get a job, a real job. and put down the credit card and save some money.

Artist

<< <i>lets get real. Maybe they will have to suck it up and not have an I phone and a PSP and a new computer every year. >>



A perspective I want to introduce the very interesting discussion taking place in this thread, speaks to the nature of technology as it relates to comparative standards of living:

Recently, I bought an antique scale that now resides atop my desk. It was probably made between 1865 & 1900 by the Henry Troemner company of Philadelphia, (who made scale for the U.S. Mint during this period.) This scale is beautiful - it is made of Cherry wood, and incorporates 9 panes of beveled glass into its design - as a machine, it serves one purpose, and that is to measure the weight of things, a task it still performs as flawlessly today as it did when it was made over 100 years ago - between its beauty and its functionality, I have little doubt that this scale will survive for all time, barring any kind of fire or accident that might claim it otherwise. In contrast this lap top I am typing on which also resides upon my desk is only two years old - already it is an antique by many standards - though it performs infinitely more tasks than my old scale, five years from now I would be surprised if it existed at all except as recycled into some other form.

My point is that when comparing standards of living across generations, it is important to look past oversimplified comparisons and to take into account that the very nature of living continues to change as well.

BBN

Our four year old earns money based on what she does. She has three simple thing she has to do. Put her dirty clothes in the hamper, make her bed(the best she can. far from perfect) and pick up her toys at the end of the day. At the end of the week we talley up how much she has done and pay her based on what she's done. When we pay her 10% goes to church, 15% gets saved and then when she's saved up some fun money we let her go to the store and pick out a toy. She loves the toys she's saved up to buy with her own money.

fishcooker

Their job needs to be school. If you're spending $30 large or more per year, you don't want your kid waiting tables and getting B's. You want them getting A's for that money.

In the end, it all still comes down to decisions and issues that are well beyond your control. Ironic, ain't it.

ajbauman

BBN... awesome incentives for your little girl!

I have my own ideas on child rearing, which I won't go into here as it is a bit OT...

I do belive that in general my children, which I don't have yet, will live in a different US than I grew up in. Over the last several years I have seen the US detoriate in quality and integrity. The people who are running our country are no longer the die-hard idealistic patriots that this country was founded with. Almost all governement leaders cannot see past their term time limits and the "good of the nation" seems to no longer be on their agenda.

This, combined with out of control spending and lack of controls, has brought us to this situation we are in now. And I see no way that the US will come out of this on top without a major shift of attitudes of the nation as a whole and our ruling leaders. There is also no way that the US can calm these financial woes without incuring additional exenses and debts, with their lack of options inflation seems the best for them now.

But the current financial crisis is only a tiny piece of rock in the avalanche coming down the hill. You've still got, in order of magnitude, dependence on foreign oil, the rising of China & India as world powers, Medicare & Social Security, healthcare, clean water & infastructure, education standards, and several others.

The US has several problems that do not even seem to be on the radar of our politicians.

Bottom line is that I don't think seeing $8,000 gold is a strech especially in this world of high inflation and tight competion for natural resources, will it happen by 2012, who knows. But if the rest of the world un-pegs the US dollar for trade (especially oil), I think we will be about the same as Germany in the 1920s.

I also belive that the majority of the US has too much of an entitlement mentatility and has lost it's work ethic. What happens when you can't go to the market and buy food because the $ is devauled too much or other countries will pay more than we can? Can you see Americans working their home gardens?

renman95

The "clowns" can't decide how to get out of a paper bag today.

Dow down 700+ points just a half hour ago. "Recovered" to just down 445!

Ren

renman95

Dow: @ close down 777 (and still counting?)

I so happy that I've been out of this. I still would not venture back for a long time.

This is a paradigm shift.

Not a pair of dimes...that's just change.

Ren

renman95

Does anyone hear still believe the adage of buying platinum anytime when it's below gold?

Ren

curly

Brothers, I've got four grandkids. Sometimes I just want to hug them and apologize to them for the socialist lifestyle that they are going to be condemned to live. They didn't do anything to deserve this.

7over8

to the forum member concerned about saving for Princeton or Harvard,

take it from someone who sent a child into college recently with very similar academic achievements,

your last name, your economic standing, your "at home" family status IS more important these days than anything else.....

it sucks, but it's reality, we dug this ditch and now we are at the bottom of it

get ready to pay full tuition and fees without any assistance, why?, because if you cant meet any of the above "desired" qualities, you dont get any help

renman95

James Turk of goldmoney.com says gold's eventuallity will hit $7,000! And 1,100-1,200 bucks by the new year. Remember how excited but cautious we were when silver was around $20? I very excited at these levels.

R

sonde79

how well your children live depends on their abilities in the workforce. a good economy helps but raised well they will overcome.

renman95

So if the hyper-inflation does kick by....2011, will gold be near $8,000? Assuming the dollar destruction, of course. And a new currency or group of currencies take over the dollars' role.

RonLJr

If Gold goes that high, where might silver be priced??
Thanks

PerryHall

<< <i>If Gold goes that high, where might silver be priced??
Thanks >>



$100-$125 would be my guess.

MilesWaits

Gold at $8000 would still not net the current return on a set of Mint 2009 Cents (talk about hyperinflated)!

Miles

pf70collector

As stated many times before on this forum, I don't think I would want to live in a world with $8000 ounce gold.

roadrunner

The price of gold could have very little to do with the world other than pegging currencies to it, and then moving on. For the US to back all their external debts to gold would require a price of $10,000/oz or so. It's just a number. When FDR instantly changed the gold price in 1933 from $20 to $35 what instant effect did that have on the economy. If anything, 3 months later in summer of 1933 the stock market rebounded for the next 4 years. There was no new paradigm shift from a 70% increase in the price of gold. We oculd increase the pog from $923 today to $1570 and it could have essentially no effect on the general economy...yet a number of people have said they wouldn't want to live in a world with $1500 gold. The people in 1929 probably said the same thing when gold was $20: "I wouldn't want to live in a world with a pog of $35."

every darn time.. no matter the generation the old timers were wrong. you would think they would notice this trend of being wrong every time... but no. it is a natural reaction of old people to bash the youth and their strange ways. i at 33 am catching myself for doing it when i walk through the mall and chuckle at how i have changed with age.

This Sept 2008 quote from fc is quite telling today in that the "older generation," in particular the ones that grew up in the 1920's to 1940's had it right. Yet we put them out to pasture in the 1980's and 1990's with new fangled finance and new paradigms. It's clear today they were right, and we were dead wrong. Chalk one up to the oldsters who were dead right when it counted, but none of us would listen.

roadrunner

Bear

My son went from earning a 6 digit salery in the health care

industry ,with retirement and health benefits to a job that

paid less then half ,with no benefits whatsoever. What ever

he will have in his old age may be , what he inherits from me.

that is, if there is anything left at all.Kind of a sad state of

of the Nation.

1jester

<< <i>

<< <i> To each his own. I don't know where the guy who eats spaghetti 5 times a week and denies his family what I would consider to be modern needs lives, but it isn't near me. And I wouldn't want my wife and kids in a car with 300 thousand miles in it. Probably doesn't have ABS, or air bags. Might not even have seat belts. I don't know what state he lives in, but in NJ it wouldn't pass the emissions restrictions either. >>



There's nothing wrong with being frugal. It sure beats the alternative that a lot of Americans are living, of an Escalade and BMW in the drive way, maxed out credit cards, no savings, interest only mortgage, etc. etc. etc. The material things you give kids aren't as important as spending time with them, reading to them, etc. The material possessions won't make them any smarter or better in school, but reading to them and taking them to museums, aquarium, cultural events probably will. >>



It's a relief to see a healthy approach to material things, and I applaud those who don't waste their precious time and resources on things that don't matter in the long run. This is particularly true if these material gadgets have been purchased on credit.


On another note, as per the OP's comment on a much higher price of gold: what difference does it make if it takes multiple times more greenbacks to buy a particular amount of the yellow metal in the future? Does that mean holders of gold have won the lottery or something? I think not; it merely means they have averted financial disaster and have been able to maintain their purchasing power as the currencies fail. It's difficult to quantify at what point someone has made a "profit" on long-held precious metals, correct? I'd love to say, yes, I've made an 800% profit on my gold (bought at today's prices and sold when gold reaches $8000), but is it really a profit? It seems to me that in this case, the dollar has lost value, and not gold gaining in value.