PCGS "old holder" question

luckyman

I see quite often in auctions where emphasis is placed on PCGS "old holder" slabs that implies that the coin being offered should

slab higher if it were cracked out and re-submitted. How often do you think this actually happens, where PCGS got it wrong the

first time around and upgrades the coin in a "brand new" slab? I know that with any selling there's going to by hype, but is this

just pure hype or is there some truth to it...thanks...

notwilight

OGH is a fact, not necessarily hype. Some like it, some don't. It is appropriate to include that info in the description. If it is hyped as an upgrade candidate, the the buyer should beware. --Jerry

blu62vette

If the coin upgrades now it wouldnt be that pcgs got it wrong the first time but possible gradeflation.

OGH goes around and around as far as the premium. It is a great selling tool but one also thinks a dealer with and upgradable coin would submit for an upgrade if it was that solid of a lock. There are still some OGH out there that will upgrade there are others that will not. Look at the coins good first.

direwolf1972

<< <i>that implies that the coin being offered should slab higher if it were cracked out and re-submitted. How often do you think this actually happens, where PCGS got it wrong the
>>



I'm not sure the words PCGS got it wrong are correct. PCGS was stricter back then on grading (for the most part) but a grade is and always will be subjective. IMO there is no right or wrong only an opinion that sometimes others agree with other times people will disagree with.

luckyman

I know that grading is subjective, but what do you mean when you say PCGS was "more strict" in their grading back then?

I thought that a professional grader looked at a "point system" that more precisely graded coins. In other words, knocking a point

off for this or that (wear, knicks, strike, edge dings, eye appeal, etc.) and subtracting those points from a perfect 70 to arrive at the actual

grade. I would think that "strict" would be another word for "consistency" which I'm sure people who pay the professionals to evaluate their

submissions would expect. I don't understand the term "gradeflation". Does that mean the coin is getting better sitting in the holder?

I'm sorry if I'm asking a delicate question, I'm fairly new to collecting and learning as much and as fast as I can. I have the

same issue with any of the top grading services, NGC, ANACS, ICG, etc. There's no excuse for a "professional grader" to have a "bad day".

or to "miss" anything that grades a coin one way or another. That's why they get paid the big bucks.....an amateur like myself can have

a "subjective" opinion....the grading companies have to have a "systematic" opinion based on their knowledge and expertise, don't they?

Otherwise, we end up with potentially an "expensive" error in a slab. My question originally was simply "what does old green holder really

mean?"

The responses opened up an interesting (to me) new question. What procedures do the graders go through in evaluating a coin?

I'd like to know what makes today's graders less strict. Thanks, my apologies to anyone who might feel offended by my directness.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>I know that grading is subjective, but what do you mean when you say PCGS was "more strict" in their grading back then?

I thought that a professional grader looked at a "point system" that more precisely graded coins. In other words, knocking a point

off for this or that (wear, knicks, strike, edge dings, eye appeal, etc.) and subtracting those points from a perfect 70 to arrive at the actual

grade. I would think that "strict" would be another word for "consistency" which I'm sure people who pay the professionals to evaluate their

submissions would expect. I don't understand the term "gradeflation". Does that mean the coin is getting better sitting in the holder?

I'm sorry if I'm asking a delicate question, I'm fairly new to collecting and learning as much and as fast as I can. I have the

same issue with any of the top grading services, NGC, ANACS, ICG, etc. There's no excuse for a "professional grader" to have a "bad day".

or to "miss" anything that grades a coin one way or another. That's why they get paid the big bucks.....an amateur like myself can have

a "subjective" opinion....the grading companies have to have a "systematic" opinion based on their knowledge and expertise, don't they?

Otherwise, we end up with potentially an "expensive" error in a slab. My question originally was simply "what does old green holder really

mean?"

The responses opened up an interesting (to me) new question. What procedures do the graders go through in evaluating a coin?

I'd like to know what makes today's graders less strict. Thanks, my apologies to anyone who might feel offended by my directness. >>



For example, what used to be considered MS64 for a Double Eagle in 1988 is now often an MS65 in 2008.

cape

YOU STILL HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GRADE THE COIN REGARDLESS OF THE HOLDER!!!!!!!!

TomB

Grading is an art, not a science. There is no universal grading system, regardless of comparison between companies or individuals, and this non-universal system is not static, but rather dynamic over time.

luckyman

Cape...no need to yell...I can hear you just fine if you speak in a normal tone. Interesting that no one seems to know the criteria or

procedures the "professional graders" follow. Where can I apply for that job? It's got to pay more than I'm making now and a lot more fun!

northcoin

One thing four sure though is the old holders are less likely to be one of the counterfeit knock-offs coming out of China in PCGS slabs.

MisterBungle

I like older holders, and it has absolutely nothing
to do with the grade on the slab.

It seems that everyone now is a home chemist
and are dipping prior to sending coins off to be
graded.

Unfortunately many people do not rinse the
coin properly after a dip. So they dip them,
and then slowly for a few months the coin
starts to turn ugly.

I like the ones in older holders which have
proven they will not turn ugly due to a bad
rinsing.

~

PCcoins

<< <i> My question originally was simply "what does old green holder really

mean?" >>



OGH or old green holder, is just the reference to an older generation of the PCGS slabs. The original PCGS slab is the "rattler" slab which the coin wasn't really secure in the slab so the coin could move around or rattle in the slab. Both of these early slabs were suggested to be conservatively graded because the coin market at that time, late 80s to early 90s, was very strong.

Lets say for example a certain coin graded ms65 in 1989 would cost you around $800. And now that same coin would only cost you $150. This is true for many coin series at the peak of the coin market and now the same coins can be had for a fraction of the prices paid in the late 80s.

So the TPGs at the time the OGH, and NGC "Fatties" were issued the grading standards were more conservative because the prices were much higher and the TPGs didn't want to over-grade a coin where the value could be hundreds or thousands of dollars difference from the next grade point. And about 7 years ago the coin market was really in a slump, so the grading at the time adjusted to the market and became much more lenient. For example lets say a certain coin grading ms65 costs around $50 and the same coin graded ms66 costs $70. When the same coin in the late 80s could have cost you $200 in ms65 and $350 in ms66.

But now IMO the grading has become must stricter at the TPGs (especially at NGC, they have recently tightened up on there grading) as the coin market has been strong in the last few years as the now coins series( statehood quarters, presidential dollars) have attracted more coin collectors.

GrumpyEd

<< <i>Interesting that no one seems to know the criteria or >>




<< <i>procedures the "professional graders" follow. >>





Even following a criteria collectors/graders will not always have the same opinion. The same coin's grade might change if you keep sending it in.

corvette4

About 2-3 years ago Teletrade had a number of PCGS OGH $20 Saints that were all graded MS61. From their pics it seemed to me that they should be graded much higher. I got some of them and as a test I cracked out a 1914S graded MS61, gave it an acetone bath, sent it in raw, and it came back as a MS64, which was what I thought the grade should be. I have kept the others in their OGH, and every one of them would grade higher than MS61 today. One would go MS65 any day of the week. It looks like it was just freshly minted, and has the best eye appeal of any of my other Saints.

abitofthisabitofthat

Link to an interesting discussion of third party grading standards and how they change by someone who was there for most of the ride.
link

Preussen

<< <i>I like older holders, and it has absolutely nothing
to do with the grade on the slab.

It seems that everyone now is a home chemist
and are dipping prior to sending coins off to be
graded.

Unfortunately many people do not rinse the
coin properly after a dip. So they dip them,
and then slowly for a few months the coin
starts to turn ugly.

I like the ones in older holders which have
proven they will not turn ugly due to a bad
rinsing.

~ >>

I agree that this is a true benefit of having coins in OGHs...proven long-term stability of the coin. -Preussen