Solution for Determining Counterfeit Coins?

Obiwancanoli

As a favor to a friend who was recently a victim of coin fraud, I offered to post this, in an effort to glean whatever I can to help not only my friend, but myself, and others as well. Thanks in advance for your responses...

Recently, said friend purchased an 1889-CC Morgan on Ebay (for $2,000), & subsequently sent it to PCGS for grading. The coin was returned with the notation that it was counterfeit, and the seller - now beyond an arcane Ebay 45-day limit for such complaints - refused to take the coin back, refund the $2K, etc., etc.

As a result, my friend is taking steps to sue the seller - in another state - and of course, this process will take a lot of time and expense. But, I digress...

I asked if he weighed the coin upon receipt, and our discussion resulted in the following queries:

1. What margin of error would cause you to suspect a given coin in AU might, in fact, be counterfeit? If an MS Morgan is precisely 412 1/2 grains (26.729550375 grams; .94 oz.), is a scale which measures these tolerances an appropriate tool to make this determination?

2. As a genuine Morgan (or any other coin, for that matter) cannot - presumably - weigh more with time, it can only weigh less as the grade decreases, but by how much could it do so, and still be judged genuine?

Since my friend (really, this isn't ME) considers himself experienced, but not "expert", he's often successful in locating coins below FMV, in order to sell at a profit, of course. Grading typically - as I understand it - takes sufficiently long enough that refund policies on Ebay, for instance, often lapse before an "expert" opinion can be obtained. Thusly, a good eye, lots of reading and research, and, perhaps, a high-quality scale are the most effective tools he - and many others, I suspect - has to help.

If not these tools, then what? As an amateur myself, I'm not in the business of buying coins to then sell at a profit. Instead, I'm simply trying to build my collection with the best grades I can either afford, or with the help of knowledgeable friends, obtain them through legitimate, reliable sources. It goes without saying, of course, that I'm working hard at developing a keen eye, and hope to make consistently fewer mistakes as I go (and hopefully, with less expensive coins!). As a result, I've purchsed several graded coins to help hone my skills.

Nevertheless, raw coins offer both traps, and treasures. What tools might help me discern the difference?

Thanks for your help!

tightbudget

The best solution for determining counterfeits is through studying. Take a course at the ANA Summer Seminar or buy a book. And if you can, examine known counterfeits in person so you know what to look for. Like everything in life, the best solution is practice, practice, practice.

DNADave

I think it would take smoe pretty big berries to buy an uncertified 89-cc on the bay.

GrumpyEd

When the coin costs many times the grading fee it's safest to buy it already graded unless you know you can tell if it's fake and see it in in hand or from good enough pics to decide.

AUandAG

You hit the nail on the head. Weight is a sure givaway. Anything under 26 grams is SUSPECT in
my book. I don't care how worn it is. Most of the metal is displaced not lost in the wearing process.
Some counterfeit CC's are correct in weight but are oversized! Yep, too large. Got to measure the
diameter and compare to a known real dollar in the same grade. I would like to see a pic of your friends
coin to offer more 'tells' as there are definite markers for counterfeit CC's. When you get a chance to
post a pic that would help.
Sorry about that expensive lesson. How did he pay for the coin? If it's on his credit card he might have
90 days to get it reveresed.
bob

jhar

I would also be in the buyer's best interest to only buy from a seller that he has total trust in.

RedTiger

Learning to authenticate against crude counterfeits can be done by watching a video or reading a book. Against medium level threats, taking the ANA course and a precise scale and calipers will go a long way. Against top level fakes, forget about it, the average collector doesn't have the time or energy to devote to the task.

Does that sound silly? Well, think about this, the pro graders at PCGS and NGC rely on their full time expert authenticator(s) to guard against the best fakes. Most of the pro graders are not qualified for that position. These pro graders have years in the industry and look at thousands of coins every week and yet most are not qualified to authenticate against top quality fakes. Given this, what chance does the little guy have?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Was it an added mintmark or a struck/cast counterfeit?

The way to defend yourself is to study what the real pieces look like, and what the bogus pieces look like. There's no supertool to determine counterfeits but your own skill.

TwoSides2aCoin

Pot metal (yuck)...it is something that you just know when you see it. I haven't seen a lot of fake silver pieces that use real silver, but nothing sounds like silver when it rings from the flip or the tapping with a pencil while balancing it on the tip of one's finger. A fake is usually much lighter. It has a dead gray color. If it has toning, it's usually dark grey or brown. The wear is usually a telltale sign. It's transferred from a copy normally. Oh there is much to learn.

There is a distinct sound, a distinct feel, a distinct smell and a distinct look about genuine silver. I suggest going to a local coin shop and "hanging out". See if you can spot a fake in his inventory. Nearly everyone gets fooled in the game of coins and it sucks big time.

Okay, so in short :

Weight
Color
Feel
Sound
Wear pattern....

Use your senses, be keen and discriminating.

lcoopie

do you have a pic of the coin in question?

kranky

A picture would be very helpful - it would let us see if the coin was a quality fake or a bad one, and that would help determine how to advise your friend. It would be interesting to know if he thinks he got the coin at a bargain price. That would tell me other ebayers probably knew the coin was a fake from the auction pictures.

I suggest your friend pay for express service at PCGS when buying commonly counterfeited coins raw if he hopes to use a dispute process. That way he'll have the coin back quickly. That added grading cost is a lot cheaper than trying to sue someone.

RedTiger's post was good. If your friend thinks he can buy expensive raw coins and resell them for a profit, he better be able to detect all the poor quality and medium quality fakes on his own. Otherwise he'll be back in this same situation again. Weight is a useful diagnostic tool, but all it can do is possibly rule out that the coin is genuine, when the weight is off. Plenty of fakes have the correct weight, so it cannot tell you the coin is authentic.

You ask what might help you the most and my answer is: Look at as many coins as you can. There is no substitute.

291fifth

The age of raw coins is over. All expensive coins should only be bought when slabbed by a major service.

claychaser

Buying RAW and commonly faked/altered coins such as 09-SVDB's, 16-D dimes, small gold, key date morgans on e-bay from non-coin dealers (I don't know anything about coins, etc.) or small dealers is just too risky IMHO. Buying the raw 89-CC is just a crap shoot, and the only way to lower risk is to have some type of paypal protection if offerred and then have a reputable grading service or knowlegeable dealer look at it in time to return it its bad. Has anyone had any experience doing this? And if so, has the seller claimed you switched out the coin?

RedTiger

<< <i>The age of raw coins is over. All expensive coins should only be bought when slabbed by a major service. >>



The problem is that "they" are faking the slabs too. The age of buying coins online from anonymous sellers might come crashing down when the fake slabs get perfected. Put a high quality fake in there, or even a lower grade real coin and it is a mine field for the average buyer. There is already a long list of coins that I will not buy on the Bay, certified or raw. It is a simple matter for off shore counterfeiters to get distribution with a U. S. mailing address.

tahoe98

......would anyone here care to share some "markers" for these and other coins? it would be nice to have a 'quick list' of other expensive coins/keys etc. that one can reference when anticipating making a purchase or trade that may help keep someone from getting a counterfeit.

anyone agree?

Obiwancanoli

I've asked my friend for any pix he has of the coin in question, and will post them as soon as received. In the interim, no one has spoken to the weight issue much, though I agree it also makes sense to measure the diameter of the coin as well. Guess I can borrow one of Dad's micrometers. Still, I ask again, can anyone speak to a general margin of error in the weight of a typical Morgan?

Thanks!

kranky

<< <i>......would anyone here care to share some "markers" for these and other coins? it would be nice to have a 'quick list' of other expensive coins/keys etc. that one can reference when anticipating making a purchase or trade that may help keep someone from getting a counterfeit.

anyone agree? >>



Bill Fivaz wrote a small pocket-sized book called "Counterfeit Detection Guide" which illustrates genuine examples of key date coins. He has written another one that covers gold coins but it's a full-size book. I agree with Fivaz' theory that it's best to know what the genuine coins look like instead of trying to remember diagnostics of fakes - because there will always be new fakes.


<< <i>can anyone speak to a general margin of error in the weight of a typical Morgan? >>


Morgan dollars weigh 26.73 grams, with a tolerance of plus or minus .097 grams. (credit to Conder101) That's for newly minted coins. I would guess a very worn Morgan might lose 1 gram or so of weight.

commoncents123

I heard a rumor that fake slabs are being made to put real coins in (upgrade from PR 68 or 69 to a 70) ... Or maybe something like a 1909-VDB RD from a 66 to 67. If the slabs are perfected, which seems like it'd be alot easier than doing the coins... look out