World Coin Help (Once Again)

coffeyce

I got a few in the mail today and need help with three.

1. 1868 50cent coin. Checked PI, Spain and Mexico cant find it


2. 1911 UK Trade Dollar Its bronze or brass 39mm and 24.8 grams. Book lists only silver ones.


3. 1818 East India Company 1/2 Anna Cant find in Krause 30mm 12.3 grams copper (i think)


thanks
Chris

lordmarcovan

The Brit Trade dollar is a fake. Probably of modern origin. Look for the "Made in China" sticker. You probably don't need such a sticker, actually. It's got all the hallmarks of a Chinese counterfeit.

The East India piece is very interesting- I've never seen that design before. I like it.

The Isabella 2nd piece is nice - a CircCam!

Philippines? I dunno. Spain homeland or Philippines, would be my guess. Certainly not Mexico. Mexico was independent by that time.

dan8402

<< <i>Brit Trade dollar is a fake.

East India piece is very interesting- never seen that design before.

The Isabella 2nd piece is nice - a CircCam!

Philippines? I dunno. >>



I could find a 10c under the Phillipines Spanish colonial pieces, but not the 50c. But, with that said, they do look very similar even though i couldn't find the larger denomination.

Like Lord M said, I have never seen or heard of a non-silver version of the UK $1.

No clue on the East India piece.

coffeyce

kind of figured the first one got me.

Cir-cam I dont know what that is.

Chris

dan8402

<< <i>kind of figured the first one got me.

Cir-cam I dont know what that is.

Chris >>



Basically like the cameo effect of a modern proof but on circulated coinage. It has worn devices creating contrast with the protected and therefore darker fields.

Either way, its a really cool looking 140 year old coin.

Edit: Accidentally quoted my own post instead of editing.

dan8402

lordmarcovan

I strongly suspect Philippines on that Isabella 2nd piece because it is 50 centimos de Peso.

"Peso" means "weight", but capitalized like that, I think it refers to the Peso denomination.

I couldn't find it either. Could we all be using the same edition, with the same Krause omission? I use the 4th edition 19th century book.

I never trust Krause anymore, since they changed formats a few years ago. They have been known to omit entire types, even entire denominations, as I so recently discovered with the Peruvian 1/5 sol pieces, NONE of which are listed in the 2007 20th century volume. Grrr.




THIS is where "CircCams" are explained.

The term is growing in use, at least on the forums. Naturally I was not the first to appreciate that particular look on coins, I just coined the phrase. (We needed a short term for that look).

The Forum Lingo Dictionary uses a shortened definition. Basically, a CircCam is "a coin with darker fields and lighter devices".

CircCam is short for Circulation Cameo.

You have cameo proofs that look like a cameo because of frosted devices and mirrored fields. Similarly, there are circulated coins with a sort of cameo appearance, due to dark toning on the low points and lighter toning or no toning at all on the high points.

lordmarcovan

Yup. %*@#ing Krause strikes again, omitting an entire DENOMINATION from the 4th Edition.

Sure enough. Philippines KM#147.

Don's World Coin Gallery to the rescue, once again!

That does it. I am gonna make a small donation to that site. If the Krause people cannot get their heads from out between their buttocks long enough to realize that eventually a FREE site is gonna make them obsolete, I have no respect for them. They need to clean up their act.

3Mark

<< <i>Yup. %*@#ing Krause strikes again, omitting an entire DENOMINATION from the 4th Edition.

Sure enough. Philippines KM#147.

Don's World Coin Gallery to the rescue, once again!

That does it. I am gonna make a small donation to that site. If the Krause people cannot get their heads from out between their buttocks long enough to realize that eventually a FREE site is gonna make them obsolete, I have no respect for them. They need to clean up their act. >>



It's in the 5th edition.3Mark

lordmarcovan

Good. They are finally withdrawing their heads from you-know-where a little. Maybe in another five to ten years, all the omissions and errors from the format change will finally be ironed out, one hopes.

What's that piece list for in the 5th Ed?

I'm still PayPal-ing five bucks to Don's World Coin Gallery.

And Chris, if you wanna sell that CircCam Philippine piece, I'm a buyer, if the price is right.

lordmarcovan

You know, the sans-serif lettering on that East India piece looks hinky to me, somehow.

I could be totally wrong, but that too has something of the modern fake or fantasy issue look to it?

BBQnBLUES

<< <i>I got a few in the mail today and need help with three.

1. 1868 50cent coin. Checked PI, Spain and Mexico cant find it
>>


Chris; I really like that Phillipines 50. Nice original look to it..

Also, Thank you LordM for explaining what "CircCam" meant..

JoesMaName

<< <i>You know, the sans-serif lettering on that East India piece looks hinky to me, somehow.

I could be totally wrong, but that too has something of the modern fake or fantasy issue look to it? >>



I felt the same - the font looks too modern

lordmarcovan

With the exception of a certain 1837 British pattern crown, I cannot think of very many 19th century coins where they used sans-serif lettering.

It just looks more modern. It is usually my first and best giveaway that a piece is a modern fantasy issue, too. Few counterfeiters or fakers bother to get the lettering just-so.

I would imagine there probably are legitimate 19th century coins with sans-serif lettering on them, but I can't think of any offhand.

BCNumismatics

The Indian piece IS definitely a fantasy.The real thing has the East India Company's Coat-of-Arms on the obverse,& they date from between 1835 & 1858.

Aidan.

3Mark

<< <i>Good. They are finally withdrawing their heads from you-know-where a little. Maybe in another five to ten years, all the omissions and errors from the format change will finally be ironed out, one hopes.

What's that piece list for in the 5th Ed?

I'm still PayPal-ing five bucks to Don's World Coin Gallery.

And Chris, if you wanna sell that CircCam Philippine piece, I'm a buyer, if the price is right. >>



Priced in 5th:

F$7
VF$12
XF$60
Unc$300

There are two overdates listed, 1868/58 and 1868/7, but it doesn't effect the price much.3Mark

koincollect

<< <i>The Indian piece IS definitely a fantasy.The real thing has the East India Company's Coat-of-Arms on the obverse,& they date from between 1835 & 1858.

Aidan. >>



This and all similarly dated pieces are indeed temple tokens worth just $1 or so.

lordmarcovan

Aha. Temple token. Yes.

CollectorBob

Agree! The EIC is a fantasy or temple token.

Bjorn

<< <i>With the exception of a certain 1837 British pattern crown, I cannot think of very many 19th century coins where they used sans-serif lettering.

It just looks more modern. It is usually my first and best giveaway that a piece is a modern fantasy issue, too. Few counterfeiters or fakers bother to get the lettering just-so.

I would imagine there probably are legitimate 19th century coins with sans-serif lettering on them, but I can't think of any offhand. >>



Newfoundland cents... I just picked one up!

Bjorn

Are all of these from the same source? The Philippines coin looks legit, but I would possibly be suspicious based on where it came from... if a legitimate dealer, no problem.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Newfoundland cents... I just picked one up! >>

Well, I'll be... you're right!

Love that avatar pic, Bjorn.

coffeyce

Actually they were 3 different sources.

The trade dollar had two fakes the other silver. The india coin came with the silver india coin I posted yesterday.

Chris

TheKidCollector1991

The Indian coin is a fake coin/token.
I see them selling in India (West Bengal) outside the museums.
They sell in bulk for as low as Rupees 20 each.
TheKid!

lordmarcovan

Hey, look, my name's on World Coin Gallery, now!

The $5.30 amount looks kind of strange, but I sent him five bucks plus thirty cents to cover the PP fee.

Rickc300

Place holder until I check on the semi modern counterfeits of the period... It seems that early European coinage (based on the lack of modern lighting) was counterfeited in brass because the color in low lit lighting (lanterns) looked more like silver than actual silver. Most were found in taverns or pubs. Brass counterfeits "looked" like silver,"rang" like silver and even "tasted" like the real silver stuff (Heintz, Marty 19857.224)... I own two fake 1/6 German Thalers made out of brass that look as good as the six "real" silver 1/6 Thaler coins in my collection that I have from the same era when viewed in poor lighting...
So a fake contemporary UK trade dollar would not be out of line in my way of thinking as far as I am concerned. Just my 2 cents worth...

Rick