when does PM and currency manipulation end? seems to me a pipe fantasy created for your own reasons.

fc

when does PM and currency manipulation end? seems to me a pipe fantasy created for your own reasons
to explain why PM (commodities) have gone down.

when silver took the first big drop.. i heard manipulation mentioned so many times it was
humorous.

now silver has taken several drops.. along with almost every other commodity... the dollar
is gaining against the euro due to their slowing economy... and all can be explained as
manipulation by some folks.

just as they thought gold would continue to go up... they thought the dollar would continue
to go down. once the reverse takes place they dream up fantasy situations to make sense
of reality. both were classic examples of a bubble in one direction or the other.

at what point in time do you dismiss their ravings and find other sources of information
that are based in reality of today's markets? that their doom and gloom scenarios have
biased their way of thinking to the point of no return? (just how many times will they
mention the total amount of derivatives failing to mention a small percentage are labeled as "toxic")

Right now it is time to explore other investment opportunity while no one else wants them.
What stocks will do well in a recession? Perhaps tobacco, alcohol, and food stuffs? hmmm
What property in your area is selling for a song that could be a wise hold for several years?

Why mess around with the PMs when their best days are behind them and the future is so unclear?

----

and yes i expect to get flamed by some folks for my post... but maybe it will bring up some neat
ideas and thoughts that make for good reading.

DeepCoin

I would agree with your comments. Cramer on Mad Money made an interesting observation last night. If you think McCain will win, then you should buy drilling stocks. There is no comment on candidates or policy, just and outcome based thought.

I still believe in diversification and hope the return of metals to prior levels will allow smaller collectors back into the gold markets, i.e. half eagles, quarter eagles..etc. where they have been priced out of the au range by the recent run up.

asin

Right now it is time to explore other investment opportunity while no one else wants them.
What stocks will do well in a recession? Perhaps tobacco, alcohol, and food stuffs? hmmm
What property in your area is selling for a song that could be a wise hold for several years?

Why mess around with the PMs when their best days are behind them and the future is so unclear?


fc food stuff like KRAFT, Kelloggs, Hunts, not a bad play. Also cash is king and when PM bottom. Back the truck up BEEP BEEP BEEP.

secondrepublic

<< <i> Why mess around with the PMs when their best days are behind them and the future is so unclear?
. >>



There will be a time to buy PMs again, but it might be several years from now. When we see articles like this one from 1999, describing how:

The European Central Bank... believes gold is a bad investment. The price peaked at $835 an ounce in 1980, but it has been struggling along at around $300 for the last 10 years. Yesterday, the price dropped sharply from $289.25 an ounce to $282.40 Link.

I don't think gold will fall that low again, but if and when it falls back into the $400s I will be buying.

roadrunner

Secondrepublic, that link to Gordon Brown's suggestion back in 1999 only demonstrates just how stupid the Brits were to go along with Brown's suggestion. And as a reward they made him Prime Minister a number of years later when Tony Blair stepped down. (lol)

Gold double bottomed in 1999 and 2001 at around $250-$260 per ounce. It was at that precise low that Brown sold off 50% of the UK central bank gold for peanuts. Even today at $750 that was a stupid decision. It just goes to show how wrong politicians can be. Then again he probably sold it to help the US keep the gold price down and dollar higher. It didn't work very well.

Silver and gold manipulation will never end. The FED and PPT are in the markets every day now while major banks and brokerages have joined as henchmen. It's a full time job with no rest for the weary to keep the paper daisy chain afloat. The metal ETF's were brought about as a means for the FED/PPT to better control the markets, not as a means for J6P to invest in them.

roadrunner

cohodk

Silver and gold manipulation will never end. The FED and PPT are in the markets every day now while major banks and brokerages have joined as henchmen

Then are you implying that PMs will never soar into the stratosphere?

What is the sense in having so much confidence in something if you know it will always be manipulated?

Why invest in something if, in the words of another "it can be stolen from you"?


I think what you are saying that until the entire global financial system is destroyed, and there are no banks, no stock markets, and no paper money, PMs will only be trading vehicles?

JoesMaName

It's not that black and white.

It takes a lot of wealth and cooperation to pull off any meaningful manipulation. When sufficient wealth and/or cooperation is no longer available to support the dollar, it could be allowed to fail. The rest of the worlds financial systems may be doing just fine at that point.

roadrunner

Then are you implying1 that PMs will never soar into the stratosphere? What is the sense in having so much confidence in something if you know it will always be manipulated?

Not in the least. They will definitely soar. The big banks cannot control the bigger derivatives bust that is coming. What they've had to play with so far are a few bank failures and a mortgage credit crisis. Big deal! That's a tiny fraction of what is still left out there. Credit Default Swaps are 10X bigger than what has already come. And after that the sum of the OTC derivatives is 10X that. If banks aren't around or have no more assets, how can they manipulate as effectively? Over time the paper game of selling naked shorts will lose its strength. What if the SEC actually followed its charter and actively sought out the cheats who trade that way?...and not just with the 19 favored-son banks but all companies.

Why invest in something if, in the words of another "it can be stolen from you"?

This is true for all "investment" products today. My coins can be stolen from me if big players take a postion to stampede the market down. So you take your chances. With silver and gold you have the intrinsic value of the metal vice just paper dreams. I can live with that. Paper is not looking good for the next few years.

I think what you are saying that until the entire global financial system is destroyed, and there are no banks, no stock markets, and no paper money, PMs will only be trading vehicles?

Didn't mean that. There will still be banks and stock markets, but more honestly traded than today's Ponzi schemes. The global financial system will be severely reworked at some point. Metals will thrive until this is all sorted out and made right. 20 years of Ponzi is long enough don't you think?

Let's see if BOA "buys" up Lehman this weekend. If or when this occurs, it's no different than a bank failure. How many trillions in CDS does Lehman have and how badly would that hurt TPTB? The best fix for Lehman (and the entire banking sector) is to merge with the bank that is counter-party to the largest % of it's under-water derivatives.

roadrunner

cohodk

Thank you for your thought out and reasoned response.

The metal ETF's were brought about as a means for the FED/PPT to better control the markets, not as a means for J6P to invest in them.

Do you assert this becasue it may take away demand from the physical?

I could argue that the creation SLV/GLD has made J6P aware of another asset class that he may not have been comfortable with or had known nothing about. After investing in SLV, and learning about PMs, he may actually seek out the physical thus creating demand. It may be the best thing to have happend to PMs. Awareness is opportunity.

roadrunner

Do you assert this becasue it may take away demand from the physical?

I could argue that the creation SLV/GLD has made J6P aware of another asset class that he may not have been comfortable with or had known nothing about. After investing in SLV, and learning about PMs, he may actually seek out the physical thus creating demand. It may be the best thing to have happend to PMs. Awareness is opportunity.

The intial reaction to SLV/GLD was to boost metal prices. But it also gave the cartel a convenient place to short/stampede the market when needed. And who the heck is gonna follow up that the metals actually traded hands? (i.e. the cartel watch-dogging the cartel....lol). J6P is certainly aware of ETF's and it also a more convenient means to pick his loose pockets as well. The cartel has the best of both worlds at their disposal. The cartel was certainly aware that in the long run gold will rise, but it doesn't mean they can't control that ascent and make a killing when the conditions allow. Why not make money on gold's inevitable cycling? The ETF helps ensure larger cycles and a convenient conduit for them. They didn't need it when they had 30,000 tons of central bank gold to play with. But with arguably only 15,000 tons left, it's time for them to hold the remaining ammo pat for years down the road.

In the past they would have had to legimately dumped physical gold from central bank stores to move the price. But with physical stores now depleted to an uncomfortable level, they have the ETF's to work out of. It's about control and appearance more than the ultimate price. The ultimate price is inevitable, the means to get there is not fixed.

Metals manipulated?........naaaaaah

One interesting fact is that the NY Comex has gold down 90% of that time....in a bull market no less! Most of the take downs occur precisely at 10 am and well coordinated with other commodities. Just another day on the Crimex. No other world metals market behaves like this. The worse the news and the more bank failures there are, the more gold falls. Interesting behavior for a "non-manipulated" market.

Yes, the manipulation can go on forever but only if.......

roadrunner

cohodk

Believing in market manipulation is like believing in ghosts. Either you believe in them or not, and your opinion will not be swayed.


The fact that gold has performed so badly the last 6 months, when the stuff hit the fan, lends credence to my assertion that PMs are nothing more than trading vehicles. They are good indicators of future events, just like the equity markets.