Churchill crown quest - 1st bag report

Blackhawk

I've decided to pick up Don's (Ajaan) gauntlet and join in the quest for a Churchill crown that will set the bar for attractiveness in all coin series, will draw the eye of man, woman, and child alike...that will command such attention from all who enter the room that it's displayed in that looks of awe will be the standard and tears of adoration will not be uncommon.

Well, back to reality here. I've found three 200 count bags of the 1965 Churchill crowns on the bay of E. One of the bags is dated 7 Oct. 65, the other two bags 9 Oct. 65 They have leads seals on the strings holding the bags closed.

When I get a little time around here, I'll start going through them looking for any coins of unusual beauty...Who knows...maybe a mint error is not out of the question. I'll report back from time to time on what I've come up with.

I'd like to compare the average condition of the bagged coins with those that are in the roll that Ajaan purchased. I wonder if they were rolled right from the mint, or removed from bags like these (200 count) or larger.

Here are the bags of crowns...still intact and waiting for their secrets to be revealed:

cacheman

If you tie a rope to them you could use them as an anchor, eh?

Blackhawk

laurentyvan

Never let the quest for a perfect Churchill crown end in agony...

ajaan

Bill, I am so jealous. I would love one of those bags.

lordmarcovan

Wow. Do be sure to show us some "action pix" of when the bags are opened and spilled out onto the table!

coinkat

What was not written here is that those bags are actually what is left from the hoard of crowns dated 1700 held by Lloyd's for over 291 years until secretly being sold in 1991 to a group that will remain nameless... the suspense is killing me... is there a third bust that will grade 65?

BCNumismatics

Bill,
The Churchill Crown is a common as muck coin that you can buy for under US$5.

To see unopened Royal Mint bags of them,that's a different story.

If I were you,I'd have them put up on here & here.

Screw FleaBay!

Aidan.

sumnom

Do keep us updated. I can hardly wait!

Rickc300

Hmmm... I stopped by my local (well, semi-local coin) shop today. I mentioned the quest for a MS-66 Churchill and was almost laughed at! The owner had me look through a bunch he has been accumulating (he had over a thousand pieces). BTW, what is "melt" on these anyway? I have an inside track for a thousand or so... I looked at all of them, if one side or the other looked nice I flipped it over and took a gander at the other side... I only flipped about 40-50 pieces total and everytime I flipped one, I saw an immediate problem to keep it out of top pop territory... There are no more GEMS out there! That is unless there is one in a nice plastic holder commerating the birth and death dates of this statesman (I only glanced at the 5 he had entombed in plastic without looking too close at the actual coin inside)... A dime a dozen comes to mind... What is the metal content worth on these anyway?

Rick is

lordmarcovan

<< <i> BTW, what is "melt" on these anyway? >>

Whatever copper-nickel alloy "melts" for these days, I guess.

ColinCMR

sweet bags! that should be a fun rumage

Blackhawk

I had a bit of time, so dug into one of the mint bags of crowns last night...

I'd never seen a seal from the royal mint before and thought it cool, so took a couple of photos if it to share:





Upon opening the bag and removing some of the coins, my hands started getting a little black from the dust that these coins created upon their movement in the bag over the years. If any of you have ever opened a bag of US nickels that have been stored and transported around for a couple of decades, you'll know what I mean. The metallic dust from Cu/Ni coins has a slightly acrid smell/taste.

I went through all the crowns in the bag and while there were quite a few that were probably MS63 or 64, none jumped out at me as being one of exceptional quality. All had nice lustre. I'd say maybe 5-10% of the coins in the bag were extremely bag marked (numerous deep gouges, large reeding marks, rubs, etc.)...the rest were coins that had a few hits or rubs that pulled their appearance down. As was noted by an earlier poster on this thread, they seldom had two sides that were decent - if the obverse was nice, the reverse had major problems and vice-versa.

I did make some observances about the coins that may explain why it's so hard to find a decent one. Many of the coins still exhibited the marks that were on the planchets before striking...it appeared to me that maybe 30-40% of the marks/chatter on the coins was planchet related. The higher areas of the design generally had chatter of marks that looked old and not bag related. Maybe the striking pressure on the day that this bag was struck was not set correctly. The coins also had more than their share of strange pock marks and what appeared to me to be marks from strike throughs of lint on the dies during the minting process. A number of the coins had a pock in the same place beneath Churchill's nose on the reverse. (see below) This one also has a lint mark struck into the field to the right of the pock.




I did spot an interesting, although somewhat strange variety caused by some abnormality in the obverse die...I called it the nasal hair variety - there's a small series of incuse lines beneath Churchill's nose on the obverse of the coin. About 30% of this bag had the die lines.




After picking, sorting, etc., with little to go on as far as a grading standard, I found a coin that I thought was fairly decent to photograph...not a 65, but not too bad when compared to the rest. There is a larger area with a slightly rough appearance on the lower right obverse that is so uniform that it doesn't apperar to me to be anything that was caused by movement in the bag. You can see it in the photo.





All in all it was an interesting couple of hours. If the coins had a mark in a major focal area, I didn't keep it aside for consideration. Not knowing the grading standards doesn't help when looking through a bag of these, and indeed, maybe there were a few in there that I discounted for a mark that were better coins. I'd have to agree that finding a mark free example of this large, flat, heavy coin is a task...especially so if all were dumped into a hopper off the press and then transfered to bags at the mint for distribution. I've still got two intact bags, once each from 7 Oct. and 9 Oct. that I'm in no hurry to open. I'll have to take a look at my options for their dispersal as single coins before cutting the seals.

BillyKingsley

If you want to get rid of one of your rejects, I'll take it Just one is fine with me, and I don't care if it's got the problems you've mentioned many of them having!

lordmarcovan

This thread is

ajaan

The coin you posted might MS65 at PCGS.

FilamCoins

<< <i>The coin you posted might MS65 at PCGS. >>



Really? I would have guessed 63. Good luster and sharper strike but lots of chatter on faces and in fields.

ajaan

Now that I look at it again, I'll say MS64

ColinCMR

any thoughts on how those nose hairs were created?

looks like fun!, did you keep the lead seal?

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Churchill the man would be amused by all of this. If he could he would probably sit down with you and help sort through the bags! >>



That's amusing to think about. I can picture it.

Just tell him to watch out where the cigar ashes ended up!

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>The metallic dust from Cu/Ni coins has a slightly acrid smell/taste. >>



Can I make a suggestion? Stop tasting Cu/Ni coins that sat in a burlap sack for 40 years!!!

Very cool thread. I'm a bit skeptical that it's the best way to find high grade coins, though. I would expect lots and lots of bag marks.

Rickc300

Uhmmm... Are you interested in selling that bag seal or trading it for something I might have laying around here in the cabin? It's just a little something I don't have one of or remember ever seeing before!

Rick