1876 CC Trade Dollar - double die question

jmcu12

hello all

what is the rarity behind this variety? and what is pricing like?



thanks!

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Not rare at all, but prices are often about double that of a normal piece.

greghansen

Quite rare. About twice as rare as the only other Redbook variety; the more popular 1875-S/CC. Nice premium in circulated grades. The underlying coin itself gets quite expensive in MS and near MS grades so the double die premium is less extensive on the higher grades...at least at the current times. The circulated grades can see a 2X premium, which is probably limited mostly by the fact that the series itself is not overwhelmingly popular.

DorkGirl

OK, that is confusing....


Not at all rare and quite rare.......which one is it?

greghansen

PCGS has graded a total of 63 of the 1875-S/CC variety, with 30 over MS60. It has graded only 19 of the 1876-CC DDR in total with just 5 over MS60. It is a very common misconception...because it has been innacurately reported for years, that the 1876-CC is not rare. It is...it's damn rare...much rarer than the S/CC variety...and deserving of a significant premium...which it doesn't always get. I'm just reporting the numbers. I can't tell you why it is not as popular as the s/cc...I can only tell you it is much rarer.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>PCGS has graded a total of 63 of the 1875-S/CC variety, with 30 over MS60. It has graded only 19 of the 1876-CC DDR in total with just 5 over MS60. It is a very common misconception...because it has been innacurately reported for years, that the 1876-CC is not rare. It is...it's damn rare...much rarer than the S/CC variety...and deserving of a significant premium...which it doesn't always get. I'm just reporting the numbers. I can't tell you why it is not as popular as the s/cc...I can only tell you it is much rarer. >>



Hmm, can't argue with the numbers. But I've never had much trouble finding examples of this DDR, both raw and certified.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Just checked Heritage. Their archives are riddled with the 76-CC DDR. Probably one in every four of their 76-CC Dollars has been the DDR.

greghansen

The DDR does make up a significant percentage of all 1876-CC graded. PCGS has only graded 120 Trade Dollars dated 1876-CC and 19 of them have been the DDR variety. That probably accounts for why such a high ratio of auctioned '76-CC dollars are the DDR, i.e. the date itself is very rare, 3rd rarest of the entire series. Even so, only about a handful a year of these coins appear each year in the major auctions, that don't have major problems or that haven't been net graded.

It is also one of the most frequently counterfeited coins, with both cast and struck counterfeits known to exist. Some of the struck counterfeits are very deceptive. Deceptive enough to have been slabbed by NCS for a period of time before they learned the diagnostics. I have one of the struck counterfeits slabbed by NCS in the early days. Nobody should buy this coin raw unless they know the diagnostics for the known struck counterfeits for the variety.

jmcu12

wow...a lot of info. thanks all!

I have one from along time ago that I did not look at...just filed it away. then when looking through my collection and the cherry pickers guide and I noticed it. very cool to find something that I did not even know I had!

kaz

There is also a good thread on this board about spotting the fakes.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>The DDR does make up a significant percentage of all 1876-CC graded. PCGS has only graded 120 Trade Dollars dated 1876-CC and 19 of them have been the DDR variety. That probably accounts for why such a high ratio of auctioned '76-CC dollars are the DDR, i.e. the date itself is very rare, 3rd rarest of the entire series. Even so, only about a handful a year of these coins appear each year in the major auctions, that don't have major problems or that haven't been net graded. >>



NGC has graded 94 1876-CC TD's and 23 have been the DDR.

The 1876-CC Trade Dollar is not rare at all. Maybe it can be considered a scarce issue in problem free condition, but countless examples have been certified by ANACS, NCS, PCI, and other companies. The 76-CC DDR is not a piece I could bring myself to call "rare," although "very scarce" might be fitting.

crypto79

The best way to take this issues is as an over all example of data misconceptions in the hobby.
Lets start with the base coin the 1876 cc Trade. This in it's self is a rare coin. The auction records list plenty of sales because the same couple of coins bounce around the whole sale dealer bins till they liquidate and dump at auction. It doesn't change the fact that the surviving pop for this coin is small but is more or less sufficient to take care of the collectors and a lot of the sales data is upgrades and wholesale moves.
Out of the date there are 3 main types
76 cc type(rev&obv) 1/1
76 cc type 1/1 DDR
76 cc type 1/2

Out of the 3 types the Non-DDR type 1/1 is the hardest to find which i believe is why people got the idea that the the DDR isn't rare. The type 2 reverse consists of about 2/3rds of the 76cc pops and out of the last 1/3 the DDR is about 2/3rds of that.

Now the coin is all but impossible to find in UNC although there are 2 making the dealer rounds as we speak they will find homes soon or later and they numbers are still left very small added that the 76cc is very rare in UNC in any type.

The problem free market is very thin as well as it is with many 19th Cen types. Most high end ANACS PCI ect coins are now in PCGS or NGC holders. If you go down HA.com past sales on the DDR the 3 or 4 nice or almost nice ANACS coins I know for a fact are now in PCGS and NGC holders to include a former NET coin now in a problem free holder and the nicest the AU58 darkly toned is now in a very PQ PCGS 55 holder but not taken off of the ANACS count.

Now take this in the whole supply and demand context, the series has a small base. If just two forum members sold off, the market would be flooded with high end Trades and it may or may not stimulate or suppress the series. Error collectors are one group that the word is getting out to of the spread of this but is is far from a must have as of this date. All in all there might be 250-500 of the coin but that is more then enough for the market so they sit in dealer cases which makes it look like it could always be had, which I guess it always can at this time.

koynekwest

Even though the doubled die may make up a considerable percentage of the total coins of the date, I believe eye-appeal has something to do with it's value above the normal dies, too-whether it's from a popular series or not. The spread, though largely incomplete, is very strong and significant-it's a nice example of a Class IV doubled die. I have an AU in my set of obsolete design doubled dies.

keoj

This is one of my favorite dates/varieties for a couple of reasons......1) It is one of the most physically doubled coins of any series. This is one that no loupe is needed, I can can spot one from several feet away, 2) In AU, MS or high MS is gets prohibitively rare quickly. I could lay my hands on a couple within a couple of phones calls but this is due to the few number of people that collect Trade dollars. Is the 16/16 Buffalo rare? I don't have the pop reports any longer but I believe that the pops of the 76-CC DDR are far fewer. (Someone check on that...like I said, I may be wrong.), 3) It's fundamentally a tough date in a tough series. Cryto has it pretty close, the 76-CC is tough, the Type I/I is tougher than the Type I/II. There are three varieties for the Type I/I......the DDR and wide CC varieties are most available (but pretty scarce), the normal date Type I/I is quite rare.

Hope that helps?

keoj

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>The best way to take this issues is as an over all example of data misconceptions in the hobby.
Lets start with the base coin the 1876 cc Trade. This in it's self is a rare coin. The auction records list plenty of sales because the same couple of coins bounce around the whole sale dealer bins till they liquidate and dump at auction. It doesn't change the fact that the surviving pop for this coin is small but is more or less sufficient to take care of the collectors and a lot of the sales data is upgrades and wholesale moves.
Out of the date there are 3 main types
76 cc type(rev&obv) 1/1
76 cc type 1/1 DDR
76 cc type 1/2

Out of the 3 types the Non-DDR type 1/1 is the hardest to find which i believe is why people got the idea that the the DDR isn't rare. The type 2 reverse consists of about 2/3rds of the 76cc pops and out of the last 1/3 the DDR is about 2/3rds of that.

Now the coin is all but impossible to find in UNC although there are 2 making the dealer rounds as we speak they will find homes soon or later and they numbers are still left very small added that the 76cc is very rare in UNC in any type.

The problem free market is very thin as well as it is with many 19th Cen types. Most high end ANACS PCI ect coins are now in PCGS or NGC holders. If you go down HA.com past sales on the DDR the 3 or 4 nice or almost nice ANACS coins I know for a fact are now in PCGS and NGC holders to include a former NET coin now in a problem free holder and the nicest the AU58 darkly toned is now in a very PQ PCGS 55 holder but not taken off of the ANACS count.

Now take this in the whole supply and demand context, the series has a small base. If just two forum members sold off, the market would be flooded with high end Trades and it may or may not stimulate or suppress the series. Error collectors are one group that the word is getting out to of the spread of this but is is far from a must have as of this date. All in all there might be 250-500 of the coin but that is more then enough for the market so they sit in dealer cases which makes it look like it could always be had, which I guess it always can at this time. >>



Is your 250-500 esitmate for the pop of the 76-CC on the whole or just for the DDRs? I think that estimate is far too low, even in you're talking about the DDRs. You'd be stunned how many pieces wait to be discovered, or are raw because they are problematic.

IMO, the market would definitely not be flooded if two high end examples of the 76-CC came out. There are enough people out there working on high end CC sets, centennial year sets, or Trade Dollar sets the absorb a few choice MS pieces.

The problem free market for 19th century type is not thin (relative to the rest of the coin market). Arguably, it's one of the strongest and most demanded part of the US coin market, especially in middle grades, especially in PCGS plastic, and especially with "the look."

tradedollarnut

One must remember that truly uncirculated 76-CC's are rare enough - when you start splitting the pie into 3 varieties then sample size variations begin to skew the results.

I have personally observed several choice uncirculated doubled dies being sold unattributed in auction catalogs from the 1980's and 90's. Whether the coins would still be considered unc these days is anyone's guess, but the point being that there are many DDR's out there waiting to be attributed.

DDR

Very interesting discussion!

The 1876-CC Trade dollar is scarce, if not rare, by itself. The DDR I would consider rare, since most 76 Trades are type I/II. But what is really rare are the 76-CC I/I Trades that are NOT DDR.

Once, to satisfy my curiosity I noted every appearance of a 76-CC Trade dollar at auction or on a major dealer's website over a period of about a year. I noted 38 appearances, broken down as follows:

I/I - 2 (5 percent)
I/I DDR - 11 (26 percent)
I/II - 25 (66 percent)

So clearly the most rare are the I/I non-DDRs. However, they are not priced that way. You can always pick one up for what a I/II would go for. But still I think the DDRs are cool varieties since the doubling is so pronounced, as KEOJ says, you can spot from several feet away.

crypto79

<< <i>

Is your 250-500 esitmate for the pop of the 76-CC on the whole or just for the DDRs? I think that estimate is far too low, even in you're talking about the DDRs. You'd be stunned how many pieces wait to be discovered, or are raw because they are problematic.

IMO, the market would definitely not be flooded if two high end examples of the 76-CC came out. There are enough people out there working on high end CC sets, centennial year sets, or Trade Dollar sets the absorb a few choice MS pieces.

The problem free market for 19th century type is not thin (relative to the rest of the coin market). Arguably, it's one of the strongest and most demanded part of the US coin market, especially in middle grades, especially in PCGS plastic, and especially with "the look." >>



1: The count is for the DDR and I search every auction and show I attend for them so little surprises me. I have found a half dozen or so in the last couple of years in and out of slabs. But were still not talking Morgans and Lincolns numbers here. Most type 1/1 you find will be DDR granted, but it's not like every dealer has boxes of CC Trades of any date

2: Who said anything about 2 coins? I said two forum members. And the prices were suppressed( off of their highs) after the Last batch of UNC DDR's came to auction after they failed to find quick collector homes. It is a thin market and is not really the realm of smaller dealers. The two forum member account for a large % of the current high-end price levels(and the unavoidable trickle down) and absolute supply.

3: The problem free market for 19th Cen type is thin as I said just on the supply side. But as a former "YN of the year " I am sure you knew that, I am just surprised that you don't think others do.

crypto79

<< <i>This is one of my favorite dates/varieties for a couple of reasons......1) It is one of the most physically doubled coins of any series. This is one that no loupe is needed, I can can spot one from several feet away, 2) In AU, MS or high MS is gets prohibitively rare quickly. I could lay my hands on a couple within a couple of phones calls but this is due to the few number of people that collect Trade dollars. Is the 16/16 Buffalo rare? I don't have the pop reports any longer but I believe that the pops of the 76-CC DDR are far fewer. (Someone check on that...like I said, I may be wrong.), 3) It's fundamentally a tough date in a tough series. Cryto has it pretty close, the 76-CC is tough, the Type I/I is tougher than the Type I/II. There are three varieties for the Type I/I......the DDR and wide CC varieties are most available (but pretty scarce), the normal date Type I/I is quite rare.

Hope that helps?

keoj >>



I wasn't even going to get into mint mark location, just hub differences. DDR's observation is similar to my findings although I think the Non-DDR is closer to 10% of the total pops and the DDR around 25% of the total 76CC. It's often hard to peg down a absolute amount since many cross the block without any reference to type or mint mark location. Let's talk 76cc w/chops and it's gets even more convoluted.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>

Is your 250-500 esitmate for the pop of the 76-CC on the whole or just for the DDRs? I think that estimate is far too low, even in you're talking about the DDRs. You'd be stunned how many pieces wait to be discovered, or are raw because they are problematic.

IMO, the market would definitely not be flooded if two high end examples of the 76-CC came out. There are enough people out there working on high end CC sets, centennial year sets, or Trade Dollar sets the absorb a few choice MS pieces.

The problem free market for 19th century type is not thin (relative to the rest of the coin market). Arguably, it's one of the strongest and most demanded part of the US coin market, especially in middle grades, especially in PCGS plastic, and especially with "the look." >>



1: The count is for the DDR and I search every auction and show I attend for them so little surprises me. I have found a half dozen or so in the last couple of years in and out of slabs. But were still not talking Morgans and Lincolns numbers here. Most type 1/1 you find will be DDR granted, but it's not like every dealer has boxes of CC Trades of any date

2: Who said anything about 2 coins? I said two forum members. And the prices were suppressed( off of their highs) after the Last batch of UNC DDR's came to auction after they failed to find quick collector homes. It is a thin market and is not really the realm of smaller dealers. The two forum member account for a large % of the current high-end price levels(and the unavoidable trickle down) and absolute supply.

3: The problem free market for 19th Cen type is thin as I said just on the supply side. But as a former "YN of the year " I am sure you knew that, I am just surprised that you don't think others do. >>



1. My guess would be that about 1000 exist, in all grades, raw or holdered, discovered or not. The 76-CC DDR is a coin I've followed, and have picked 3 off eBay (unattributed) in the past couple years.

2. In you're reference to two forum members, I thought you were referring to what would happen if two high end DDRs came to market. Obviously the prices were off the highs for the last batch of Uncs that sold, because they were sold between April 2008 and January 2009.

3. I thought you were referencing the demand side of that market, not the supply. I agree that the supply side of choice 19th century type lags behind the demand. However, if you reread your post, it's not particularly clear which side of the market you were talking about. As to your irrelevant personal jab, I hope it gives you great satisfaction to try to tacitly debase my opinion based on age.

keoj

Respectfully, it seems that 1000 coins seems quite high for an estimate. I looked up the PCGS pop (2007...sorry for the out of date number), Pop was listed as 14 and 4 for all grades and for chopped coins respectively (4 coins in MS grades). In comparison, the 16/16 Buffalo DDO is listed as 130 coins in the Pop report. I presume there hasn't been an explosion of new found coins in the last 2 years. My own estimate is ~ 300 coins. It sort of seems like a rare coin to me.

keoj

kaz

Interesting thread! I appreciate the information on relative scarcity of the '76-cc varieties. For the census, here is one more (cherried from Ernie):

crypto79

<< <i>Interesting thread! I appreciate the information on relative scarcity of the '76-cc varieties. For the census, here is one more (cherried from Ernie): >>


Nice coin, low end xf with a nice second skin after a light wipe. It is a late die state. 500-700(retail) coin and it goes up quickly with plastic