Die study on 1914 MPL cent, EDS vs later diestates

BWRC

Why I believe Teddy's 1914 MPL cent graded PCGS PR64RB is an Early Die State coin.

Images of Teddy's coin by Mark Goodman, top coin image is from PCGS Trueview photo blownup to show dielines under chin.

Leonard Albrecht states that 1914 MPL cents "without" the dielines running below the chin are the EDS coins. Albrecht states that there is only one obverse and reverse die for this date. I have inspected a few examples with these dielines and can say Ted's coin has sharper detail on the obverse than these other specimens. The ear detail is definately sharper on Ted's coin than any 1914 I have seen with the N/S running underchin dielines cents. Just a few comments as we start working on "MPL diagnostic studies" tied to large image digital photography.

Any comments welcome Later diestate is top photo. Note N/S dielines below the chin on this specimen. Ted's EDS on the bottom has no dielines under the chin. Best to compare detail around ear and beard on the two coins.

Grasshopper

Brian-

I agree. Also, Wexler/Flynn (1996) take it one step further and give some other 'indicators' of "reverse" diagnostics, which Albrecht (1983) does not address.

WF states that on reverse # 1, that we can see "Die scratches though th RIBU of PLURIBUS." I'd like to see a a reverse on the coins displayed herein. I was not able to find that one on mine....

I think that the obverses have been studied more then the reverses.

Does anyone have any good reverse photos of any year? And BTW, NO REVERSE DIAGNOSTICS are presently known (through Albrecht or Wexler/Flynn) for the years 1912 and the 1915 (although I think that I may have identified a few, and plan to share them when I get the large photos).

Anyone have large photos of the 1912 or 1915 reverses??

Brian-does anything stand out from your eye on the reverses of the '12s and '15s?

Duane

Steve

This discussion got me to pull out my 1914 and relook at it. Of course, the die chip above the first 1 in the date was there. I hadn't remembered if the heavy die polish under the chin was visable in my coin. What I saw was some of the lines, but not nearly as many as Albrecht shows in his late die state photo. Maybe my coin was about 700 of the 1,365 minted?

This discussion involving MPL diagnostics will be very interesting. I have relied on Albrecht's descriptions as the basis for my acceptence of what is truly an MPL. I would be interested if this analysis project results in the acceptence of other diagnostics for the series. I know that in the Wexler-Flynn 1996 book Kevin had commented about other diagnostics and other dies used within the MPL series. In particular he describes diagnostics for a second obverse die and diagnostics for a second AND a third reverse die for the 1909VDB. I would sure like to see photos of those diagnostics on that coin! As far as I know PCGS is using the Albrecht information as the basis of certifying MPL's. I attempted to get some input or clarification on that from David Hall a few years ago, but did not receive a reply. Anyway, maybe this effort led by Duane will be of great value to the hobby.
Steve

P.S. I checked my reverse for die scratches thru RIBU and didn't detect any that stood out. My problem is that without actual photos like Albrecht provided, I wouldn't be sure even if I "saw" die scratches on those letters if they were exactly as described by Kevin. The key here is you NEED photos AND you need a number of people confirming that they have the specific diagnostic on THEIR coin in order to get the hobby to accept the changes. JMHO.

Grasshopper

Thanks Steve-

Just due to the shear volume of information, I starting the analysis with the reverse of the 1915 (no diagnostics known!!).

The other '1915' string is a good start; let's see if it bears fruit.

I think taking each year one at a time is managable, and as a group, we will get some great information.

Duane

robec

Here is a larger image of my 1912 although only the top half is the only part that is in focus. I think in the course of the next couple of weeks, I may reimage my MPL's. Only this time not concentrate on luster or color, but surface clarity instead.

There are a few marks or markers on the 1912 reverse that I would be curious to know if any other 1912s possess. Such as the mark on the lower right corner of the N in ONE, the line running from between the O and N in ONE down to the upper right corner of the E in CENT and a little curved blob to the left of the O in ONE.

ambro51

I think the mark in the N and the scratch between the O N to the E are post mint damage to the coin.
Anyway, those marks are not on my coin.

One die marker that I DO see on both my coin and your image is the small die scratch that cuts back from the lower right leg of the M in unum. I can clearly see that mark on mine.

Oh and that little lumpy thing to the left of O is also on my coin. I also note the scratch between the right wheat stalk and the rim, to the right of STATES.

The place to look for diagnostics that are unrecognized will be in the same general locations as those on other MPL years. Polishing seems to have created them, what happened one year, happened other years.

LeeG

A 1914 I used to own:

mgoodm3

To show the die lines

lasvegasteddy

the reverse of my 12' shows none of those markers bob

i may add none of ambro's either

under my current 4x mag i can't see anything that pops of my 15' reverse duane

lee wow what an image of your ex 14'

mark...amazing 14' there too

renomedphys

Fwa-BAM! Brian, that purple '14 is to die for!

Get it? "die" for...