A corroded-but-cool jeton I found in my junk jar

lordmarcovan

Check out the corroded-but-cool jeton I found in my "Holey Coin Vest Extras" jar. I semi-accidentally sold it for $6.62 last night on eBay, when it was one of the whimsical lots I put out for Swampboy's "$6.62 challenge".

Somebody else hit the BIN before Gil even got a chance.

Obverse: Libertas casting something in the sun (or a fire)?

Reverse: you gotta love that sea-monstery "dolphin". And the manus dei (hand of God) reaching out of the cloud with a crown, to put on its ugly, snarling head. Too cool, I think.

Funny, I never paid any attention to this piece because it was not quite presentable enough for the Holey Coin Vest. After scanning it and noticing the design elements, though, I found it pretty fascinating. And at least one other person did.

JimK- please repost what you PM-ed me about it, or may I quote it here?

Why is it that I so often discover the interesting points about an item AFTER I sell it, hmm?

newbiecollector

Great one!!

Sorry I missed that auction. I would like that "holey" and all.

lordmarcovan

One of the things JimK mentioned was that it could actually say "WOLF LAVF", instead of LAVR in the exergue.

JimK

Since Liberty is holding a Hammer perhaps she is forging the 'goodness and friendship' denoted on the reverse design now that I am looking at it more closely. Dolphins in medieval times were symbols of this goodness and the loose translation I believe on this jeton is (in latin):
"Out of Liberty, goodness/friendliness is protected"

I am not positive but I believe the last letter on the name is probably an 'F' as opposed to an 'R' and this jeton can almost assuredly be attributed to Wolf Lauffer (Nuremburg) so it looks like you nailed that!
Jim

lordmarcovan

IS it a hammer, or something grasped in a set of tongs?


I know, I know. Time for some bigger pix.

Stand by.

In the meantime, some backstory.

Note the link that JimK posted in Cameron's recent jeton thread.

I'd had that same page bookmarked once upon a time, but had misplaced the link.

Jim, I will take the liberty of quoting what you PM-ed me (hope you don't mind- I guess you probably wouldn't)



<< <i>Hi Marcovan,
Sorry to bother you but I just love researching this kind of stuff...
That jeton you posted I found absolutely fascinating!
The loose translation- in Latin (I believe) is:
Out of Liberty, goodness/friendliness is protected.
The Dolphin in medieval times was a symbol of goodness and friendliness and as you said it is the hand of God crowning the symbol so you nailed it!
If the last letter of the name is actually an 'F' as opposed to an 'R' then I am positive you can attribute this jeton to Nuremburg's Wolf Lauffer (who else could it be anyway?)
What struck me instantly though was the Liberty on the obverse, and the symbolism of the whole design.
I wonder if Weinmann or De Francisci might have possibly used this jeton or similar when they came up with their respective Walking Liberty or Peace Dollar (rising Sun/new dawn theme) designs?? The similarities are there, do you see this also?
Thanks for sharing as I found this quite an interesting piece of history.
Best,
Jim >>

JimK

She certainly seems to be walking toward the fire or is it the sun??
Both design elements of Walking Liberties and Peace Dollars regardless.
I'm really starting to wonder if perhaps several of our illustrious 19th century American coin designs were eluded to from this particular jeton?
Hey, it might be a bit of a stretch but an interesting thought to say the least....

Jim

lordmarcovan

OK, here are bigger pix.

I definitely think Libertas is casting something in the fire (which looks like the sun), and I do believe she is holding that object in some blacksmith's tongs, unless I'm mistaken?

Amazing what sort of mystery objects come out of hiding in a semi-jesting response to a $6.62 challenge, eh?

lordmarcovan

Hey! "PACE" (Peace) is one of the words on the obverse (IF that is the obverse)... what if that was a sword she was throwing in the fire? Y'know, swords-into-plowshares, and all that?

I dunno, though. Still looks like tongs to me.

JimK

Is it possible she is even cradling something in her left arm??
The similarities are eerie to Walking Liberty design- don't you think?
That is definitely an 'f' by the way so this is most assuredly a Wolf Lauffer Nuremburg jeton.
Jim

lordmarcovan

I do think the similarities are eerie, but even moreso to the lady with an anvil on the US-Philippine coinage, which one of our Phil-American collectors will be kind enough to post an example of, please.

It is probably a pretty ancient symbol and the US Walking Liberty, French "Sower", and Philippine lady with the anvil and tongs (among others) are probably all collectively a very ancient symbol. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a Roman coin or two with the design. Good designs tend to get recycled and resurface in varying manifestations over the centuries.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Is it possible she is even cradling something in her left arm?? >>



I do think she might be.


OK, I stole a Philippine peso from our friend Filamcoins, for comparison.

Check out the similarities. But this one DOES have a hammer, not tongs. Hmm.

JimK

I translated 'ex pace' as 'out of'
Perhaps we need a Catholic Priest to give us some lessons in Latin!

Jim

lordmarcovan

I think you are right.

EX PACE LIBERTAS = "Out Of Peace, Liberty"... right?

Fits with the whole forging theme.

Now I wonder about that sea-monstery "dolphin" and the Hand Of God crowing him.

Who wants to tackle that inscription?

A DELPHINO INCOLUMITAS.

"Delphino" has to be "dolphin", or so I assumed. What was it you told me about the symbology of the dolphin?

JimK

I found that the Latina surname of Delphino/Delfino means literally: goodness/friendliness
I'm pretty sure this is what the symbolism is pointing to and Dolphins were once used as symbols of the same.
Interesting also that the Phillipines used this very similar design.
Any clue as to what she is cradling in her left arm?
I believe Walking Liberty design is Lilberty holding an assemblage of flowers? which has elements of an offer of Peace I suppose...
Jim

coinpictures

Call me hallucinating, but rather than a tongs in her hand, the first thing I saw was a torch that is lighting a cannon that is facing left.

Edit: It looks like LAVF rather than LAVR to me...

lordmarcovan

So the dolphin may be a wordplay- a pun of some sort, maybe? Interesting.

I think you might be on a similar track with the Walking Liberty comparison. I guess Liberty's various incarnations over the centuries have had similar elements.



Here she is on a Walking Liberty half (which I made an offer on yesterday). I think Weinman had her holding an olive branch? There's the "Peace" theme, again.





Here is another incarnation from many centuries earlier, on a big sestertius of the Roman emperor Galba (68-69 AD) that I just sold. She is "LIBERTAS PVBLICA" here.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Edit: It looks like LAVF rather than LAVR to me... >>

I think that is so, yes. JimK was correct in pointing that out. It makes more sense of my Wolf Lauffer guess, too.

JimK

It makes sense to me that Weinmann being German would use such a jeton in his ideas when creating the Walking Liberty Half.
Since the inscription is in Latin and there is a 'hand of God' coming down, there seems to be a semi-religious theme to this particular jeton as opposed to the normal 'wise' sayings in old German of other Nuremburg jetons.
IMO- Perhaps modern engravers at the US mint and Members of Congress who order the designs should take note of such things and maybe give us more interesting/ historical themes instead of the usual dead presidents and the like on our coinage. (ok, off my soapbox now)
Thanks very much for bringing this jeton forward as it's definitely brought forward some interesting theories about our own American coin designs. At least we still have Eagles which someday perhaps we can bring up another subject in regard to their most interesting themes which have also been used throughout the ages by many countries- including our own!
Best Regards,
Jim

edited for political correctness~

FilamCoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Is it possible she is even cradling something in her left arm?? >>



I do think she might be.


OK, I stole a Philippine peso from our friend Filamcoins, for comparison.

Check out the similarities. But this one DOES have a hammer, not tongs. Hmm.

>>



The designer of the USPI coinage was an artist named Melecio Figueroa, a Filipino living in California at the time (circa 1903). The story, if I remember correctly, is that Figueroa used his daughter as a model and that the hammer on the anvil was to symbolize the strength and industriousness (i.e. hard work and ingenuity) of the Filipino and American peoples. The minor coinage also uses the hammer/anvil theme, but with a young man as a model instead.








Thanks, LordM, for bringing this thread to my attention. I love the history.

DCH

Here's a quote from an 1873 book found online:

"....made by Wolfgang Laufer at Nuremburgh, which relate to
France. On one side is seen a dolphin, crowned with the
inscription, INCOLUMITAS A DELPHINO. The title of
Dauphin was first borne by Charles V. arc. 1364. On the
other side of the figure is Peace, holding a cornucopia and
burning implements of war Ex PACE LIBERTAS ; in the
exergue the maker's name. Wolf. Lavf."

Dauphin de France, was a title given to the heir apparent.

Maybe this translation for INCOLUMITAS A DELPHINO: Safety to the heir?

DCH

Apparently this was an issue of Wolf Lauffer II, master 1612-died 1651.

Dauphin of France at the time was Louis-Dieudonné, crowned Louis XIV in 1643.

JimK

I think you're on to something there:
Columbia Encyclopedia: dauphin
(dô'fĭn, Fr. dōfăN') [Fr.,=dolphin], French title, borne first by the counts of Vienne (also called Viennois) and later by the eldest son of the king of France, or, if the dauphin came to die before the king, by the dauphin's eldest son. The origin of the title is rather obscure; it probably was the family name of the counts of Vienne, who adopted the dolphin as their heraldic device (12th cent.). Their territory came to be called the dauphiné, or dauphinate, of Vienne, or simply the Dauphiné. Another dauphinate, that of Auvergne, ruled by a branch of the house of Vienne, came into existence when Auvergne broke up in the 12th cent. The title dauphin passed, with the Dauphiné, to the direct heirs of the French kings when (1349) Dauphin Humbert II of Vienne sold the region to King Philip VI of France. When Philip died (1350) his grandson, later King Charles V, became the first heir to the throne to bear the title. After Louis XI the title was merely honorific. Louis Antoine, duc d'Angoulême (1775–1844), son of King Charles X, was the last dauphin. Louis, eldest son of Louis XIV, was known as the Great Dauphin; he was a competent military leader. Louis XVII is known as the Lost Dauphin.

So Delphino relates to the French counts and Kings and is the Latin word for Dolphin, dauphin in French....
Very cool find- thanks!
Jim

coachleonard

some of those old jettons had very cool designs. this wasnt a metal detecting find was it??

lordmarcovan

DCH- fantastic! Thank you!



<< <i> this wasnt a metal detecting find was it?? >>

Oh, good heavens, no! My oldest detecting find, coinwise, is 1658. I would never have sold it if it had been something I found.

A member who posts on the MD Forum did find a Krauwinckel jeton when he was in England, though, and as previously mentioned here, some of those turned up in archaeological digs at Jamestown. Otherwise one has to wonder how many made it into American soil.

Perhaps one day I will be able to detect in places where finds such as this are more than the most remote possibility.