1910 1c MPL Old Anacs holder PR 65 RB.....opinions please

SUMORADA

I'm having a problem with the diagnostics as to EDS and LDS, opinions please..

RBinTex

Good pics.

No clue as to die state.

Is there a difference in value between them?

SUMORADA

Is there a difference in value between them

Not that I know of...the diagnostics on this are quite a bit different then 2 others I've had.

WaterSport

HMMMMmmm, If your not seeing what you SHOULD be seeing based on the numerous other diagnostic info posted on this forum, Then I am going to say (gulp) maybe? Its not? a MPL? The pics are not showing the hard inside AND outside razor sharp rims especially the rev. The matte finish is there, and that’s all I can see. But hey, I am no ANACS, so can you be more precise in what your concern is.

WS

SUMORADA

The book (Albrecht,from the Numismatist) shows this as obverse 2, which shows the two diagnostics below, my coin only has the one in the top photo,
so I'm thinking it must be a different die state.

WaterSport

Or an "in-between". No records for how many times a die was pulled for cleaning, etc. so yes, if your getting some of the obv marks but not all, you should be Ok. Likewise, having a marker filled and not making an impression during striking can not be ruled out either. These coins have not been studied enough to see and determine die deterioration or other than the major differences. That may be why I am seeing a little more rounded appearance in your rev rim. The later die state only gives a little less defined strike. BUT its STILL an MPL!

WS

commoncents05

If I had to guess, I would say an earlier die state. It very well could be between the die states showed in Albrecht, but the fields look pretty wavy, which leads me to believe it is an earlier die state.

Nice coin, I thought about bidding on it, but too much gamble getting it into a PCGS holder for me.

-Paul

SUMORADA

Thank you for the responses, I do appreciate it,

Watersport, I had the same concerns about the Rims, not to worry, I just cracked it out to send it in......the Rims are fine.

It's taking a bath in Mineral Oil as we speak....I'll post the results when they come in, again, thanks for the responses.

robec

I love the shots of the coin in the ocean of mineral oil. It adds a whole new dimension.

ambro51

wow and seeing that edge is like the first time you see some gir........................

SUMORADA

Not a bad idea, maybe they should encapsulate them in mineral oil from now on, might even help with the milk spots on ASE's......

SUMORADA

wow and seeing that edge is like the first time you see some gir........................

Your a baaaaaad man!

Grasshopper

Check the "Y" in Liberty. Is it filled? That's a pretty common indication. Also, concavity or 'dipping in' of the coin surface around either side of the second "1" in 1910 seems also common for the MPL 1910s.

Both appear to be present in the very first obverse/reverse whole coin photo you post.

Nice coin!

Duane

RBinTex

MDS?

lasvegasteddy

sweeet matty there and how neat to see it in a mineral oil bath...

i personally think you got a deal

Grasshopper

"MDS?"

*****************************************

Very funny : )

Seriously, it's just an observation I've seen in maybe 6 out of 10 1910 coins. It looks similar (but not exact) to the filled "Y" in the 1911. On the concavity in the date, I've seen that characteristic in every 1910 I've looked at. Must be something in the master die, or on the pressure at striking.

If you want a good example, take a look at the 1910 in Jonathan Watkin's McCullagh Collection (number 15), where the date indentation is pronounced. I have studied that coin, and considered it an early strike, and the diagnostics were all so crisp. Nothing definative, just a casual observation. You CAN see it in the photo. Just as you can see it in the example we are looking at in this string.

Brian Wagner or Stewart Blay could say better then me, as they have seen many more, but the characteristic is pronounced in Jonathan's example. I believe the "Y" in Liberty is filled, as well, if memory serves.

Duane

SUMORADA

Duane,

Here is one that I sold recently that I think displays the same thing, only magnified because of the toning......

Millertime

Why are you soaking it in mineral oil?

SUMORADA

Why are you soaking it in mineral oil?

It looked a little grimy to me and to protect the surface from the air, is borderline red/brown now,
I want to keep it that way until it gets encapsulated again.

Grasshopper

I personally don't think there is any doubt that both are LDS mattes (or maybe having been heavily cleaned at some point a long time ago, and the surface was rubbed and abraded, and some of the fine lines get lost). Either that, or the the strikes are a little weak (usually unlikely with the mattes in general - but notice the 'rub' look on the shoulder/beard/lapel) on the second coin. Between the rim surface, the surface texture, and the other indicators taken together, though, the mattes can be easy to spot. The die lines in the date are strong but sparse (although some coins show more lines right and horizontally off the "0" in 1910. I can the date indentation on both coins, even without a close-up. Look closely at "Liberty" and find the fine horizontal dies lines, especially through the "e" and "r". They are usually very fine and get 'lost' in the heavier matte surfaces (like yours). Also, if you look closed around the entire inner rim of the obverse, you may see tooling marks at any point (they appear as raised elongated 'streaks' that appear at some random areas all around the rim -much like those shown in the Albrecht text you reference). The best reverse indicators are small raised 'bumps' situated inside of the "O" in one, and watch for fine striations from the "M" in Unum (those are trickier, and some mint state will exhibit, so you have to be careful).

Its a nice coin. Just from the last large photo, I'd eyeball it at PR63-64RB from PCGS, as they will tighten the ANACS grade. It's funny, but I did not even notice the grade, and then went back and saw the PR65 : )

Brian Wagner is taking photos on my 1910 in a couple of days. I'll ask him if he can get a large "cookie shot" to run on the boards that may show some more diagnostics and have a little fun.

That's the beauty of MPLs to me; each year can be diagnostically so differant in terms of die states and markers. I personally have a hard time with the VDB, as the mint states can be pretty deceptive. The 1916 can be tough as well.

I know that Kevin Flynn is seriously considering doing a book re the differant dies and die pairings, if anyone is interested in helping with good large and clear photos displaying any and all diagnostics you may have found. There has been no fully comprehensive catalog of MPL markers and die states to our knowledge.

Duane

Grasshopper

Oops. "Both" are the same coin. Sorry. Analysis still stands : )

I do not believe there is any direct relationship between EDS and LDS prices, other then maybe an EDS may be less worn and therefore more detailed, so the price may reflect that additional detail. Again, I think others with more experience would be a better source. Just wanted to chip in what I've picked up along the way.

DB

ambro51

................hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


...collecting MPL's by Die State. Certainly there is merit to that idea....it's not like there would be countless variations, this is all fairly well recorded so perhaps five at the most in 1913. Some years may have only one die state. Heck they have VAMS's dont they? could the die state be attributed?

Yes we should encourage the study of EDS LDS etc on these coins and encourage all collectors to study your own coins with a good loupe and decide which one you have. It would be an interesting statistic that could be developed.

all something fun to do on a rainy afternoon............


BTW I bought one of these unmounted Hastings Triplets and it is a Great little magnifyer to see these diagnostics with

http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l1865d.html

Grasshopper

That is a neat idea. Die variations labeled on the holder! And thanks for the tip on the magnifying loupe, as well.

Duane

66RB

Sumorada, I like the look of your 1910 MPL, and from the photos I see no reason it won't make the 65 grade at PCGS. Who knows whether they'll call it BN or RB, that's like a coin flip.




<< <i>Its a nice coin. Just from the last large photo, I'd eyeball it at PR63-64RB from PCGS, as they will tighten the ANACS grade. It's funny, but I did not even notice the grade, and then went back and saw the PR65 : ) >>



Don't be so sure Grasshopper. Granted this is a small sampling, but here's a group of coins that either crossed at the same numeric grade or upgraded. Also I should stress that these were/are all in the small white ANACS holders, which I feel are always worth a look.

1927-D was ANACS 64RB, now PCGS 65RB.
1929 was ANACS 64RB, now PCGS 64BN.
1931-D was ANACS 63RB, now PCGS 64BN.
1980 DDO#1 was ANACS 64RD, now PCGS 65RB

I also have a sweet 1925-D ANACS 63BN holder that I'll eat the plastic if it doesn't go at LEAST the same grade.

I have also upgraded a few ANACS coins sending them to NGC, but that's another story

The point is, blanket assumptions that PCGS automatically downgrades any other TPG graded coin they see is inaccurate.

WaterSport

I too have had far more success with ANACS coins staying the same grade or Going higher at PCGS than with many NGC coins. The coin is solid R&B and 64 for sure and may go 65. I have never done a mineral oil bath, but have seen great results on mattes with acetone. In fact, both I sent to PCGS for re grade where acetone by PCGS as my 1916 came back R&B when it was previously all brown and my 1915 was much brighter moving it up a grade to PR 64. Best of luck, the coin looks great!

WS

cohodk

Looks like a 64 or 65 to me. Probably brown. Not sure why you soaking in mineral oil. Could even bag as "altered surfaces" is oil is still present on the coin when submitted.

Grasshopper

I'll be the first one to root for a direct cross. Let's hope. My assumption is based on the coin as I see it, and not so much the ANACS holder. Although I have found PCGS to be pretty strict with grading mattes then NGC.

Duane

Grasshopper

Attached is an example of a PCGS PR64RB 1912. I personally think this coin is PQ, but nonetheless....

Duane

Grasshopper

Let's try this again.....

SUMORADA

Looks like a 64 or 65 to me. Probably brown. Not sure why you soaking in mineral oil. Could even bag as "altered surfaces" is oil is still present on the coin when submitted.

I will remove all of the Mineral Oil and give it an acetone bath before I submit it, I think I'm going to take it ATS next week, the others that I have are in NGC plastic, one day I will
try to cross them all,

I don't think it will have a problem at 65, I am concerned with the color though.