New labels indicate vintage cards keep coming

PSARich · August 23, 2008 11:00AM

I have often wondered...when will grading companies run out of submissions of vintage cards to grade? Since the new PSA labels started a few months ago, they can serve as an indication of new submissions. Of the last 20 vintage PSA 9 baseball cards I have won on ebay (1959-1964), 17 of them have the new labels. This seems to indicate that the stream of older cards sent in to PSA is stiil strong. Of course there could be a few pop-outs and resubmissions or perhaps some crossovers, but most likely most of these mint examples are new to the world of grading. Any thoughts on where these cards keep coming from and will the steady stream of older card submissions continue?

SOM · August 23, 2008 12:11PM

I am just as amazed to see this, PSArich. I always wonder where all of the hot new vintage comes from.

shagrotn77 · August 23, 2008 12:18PM

My guess is you'd rather not know where most of them are coming from.

mosaic · August 23, 2008 1:14PM

Graded cards, while popular, still make up just a small percentage of the supply out there... plenty of raw sitting around, for various reasons. I know some dealers that shun the whole graded craze. Not because they're mad trimmers, but because they're curmudgeons that don't trust PSA, BGS, SGC, or any of this new-fangled stuff.

1925pirates · August 23, 2008 8:14PM

I know of a few people with substantial high-grade collections that are completely raw. And most of them will even buy graded cards and crack them out as soon as they get them in hand.

There's still many purists in the hobby.

mikeschmidt · August 23, 2008 9:50PM

alnavman · August 24, 2008 1:01AM

<< I know of a few people with substantial high-grade collections that are completely raw. And most of them will even buy graded cards and crack them out as soon as they get them in hand.

There's still many purists in the hobby. >>

I agree with ya, I know of at least three different fellow collectors who don't have a single graded card in their collection...but have some nice looking cards from the 50's and 60's...if only I could persuade them to part with them

mikeschmidt · August 24, 2008 1:12AM

PSARich:

I think aging collectors and the demand side of the equation will always entice more submissions to trickle into the hobby. There are still myriad advanced collections out there that are primarily high-grade raw [and potentially have been for decades]. From a supply/demand side of the equation, as demand increases and prices rise for certain issues, it is a huge reason for some to consider monetizing their collections. For example, as T-206 Honus Wagner prices have increased 300%, give or take, over the last three years, I would not be surprised to see at least four or five examples of this card hit the auction circuit in the next eighteen months.

As for post-war issues from 1959 to 1964, I think there is a much greater supply of these cards than many realize. I think a quick perusal of the PSA Set Registry shows the simple demand side of the equation as to how many people are collecting these issues.

Also -- from a pure timing perspective, I think most of what you see on Ebay is likely to be related to more recent submissions. Dealers are likely monetizing more recent submissions -- as there are not too many that often sit on inventories for greater than 6-8 months. Thus, I think of anywhere, Ebay is the one place where you will see a relatively large % of recent submissions. Given reviews, crack-and-resubmits, etc., that may account for a decent percentage of what is seen on Ebay, too.

May also be worth mentioning that of the years you've identified, that there may be a small, but important percentage of those cards coming from Topps' presentation sets. Ultra-high quality, created more for preservation than flipping, that will always contribute to a disproportionately large number of MINT cards from that timeframe.

M

otwcards · August 24, 2008 11:51AM

<< May also be worth mentioning that of the years you've identified, that there may be a small, but important percentage of those cards coming from Topps' presentation sets. Ultra-high quality, created more for preservation than flipping, that will always contribute to a disproportionately large number of MINT cards from that timeframe. >>

This is of course assuming that the Presentation Set cards will be holdered by PSA. I've got a 1963 Presentation Set in the orginal Presentation boxes, but the last two times I attemtped to submit a few of them, they were rejected for Evidence of Trimming and Minimum Size Requirement. It appears to be the norm for these sets. I know another individual that had his 1962 Set rejected three times and eventually had most of it graded with SGC.

mariner · August 24, 2008 12:39PM

Scott, PM me.....I have a 1963 Topps presentation set too.

Estil · August 24, 2008 8:59PM

<< I know of a few people with substantial high-grade collections that are completely raw. And most of them will even buy graded cards and crack them out as soon as they get them in hand.

There's still many purists in the hobby. >>

I WAS one until about a year ago.

I guess that makes me a traitor, huh?

1925pirates · August 24, 2008 10:32PM

<< 

<< I know of a few people with substantial high-grade collections that are completely raw. And most of them will even buy graded cards and crack them out as soon as they get them in hand.

There's still many purists in the hobby. >>

I WAS one until about a year ago.

I guess that makes me a traitor, huh?

>>

Absolutely not, I say collect what you like!

RonBurgundy · August 24, 2008 11:31PM

As long as exacto knives and laser trimmers are manufactured, the supply of vintage cards will never cease. Just go to Ebay and educate yourself.

Ron

mikeschmidt · August 25, 2008 2:08AM

Ron:

So, having been collecting PSA graded cards for 8-9 years, and having participated on this [and many other] collecting forums from essentially the beginning, I have never heard of specific evidence of someone using a "laser trimmer" to alter sportscard stock. Do you have particular knowledge of laser trimming and sportscards that you would like to share with us?

M

SS · August 25, 2008 11:52AM

I bought the Ted Williams, Clemente, and Koufax in my raw 55 Topps set as graded cards. As soon as I got them, I broke them free.

SOM · August 25, 2008 12:07PM

shagrotn...I don't understand your comment, unless it's sarcastic...

otwcards · August 25, 2008 12:58PM

<< shagrotn...I don't understand your comment, unless it's sarcastic... >>

Andy's comment was reitterated more exactly by Ron. It was sarcastic, yet truthful.

With regard to Mr. Schoenen's challenge, anyone with such knowledge would be foolish to share it on these boards. Sort of reminds me of Nicholson's line in A Few Good Men . . . "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Regardless of how they presented it, they would be crucified.

dude · August 26, 2008 3:10AM

Very intriguing topic!

RonBurgundy · August 26, 2008 5:59AM

Mr. Schoenen,

I will not dignify your response. I would think with 8 or 9 years experience on this board, you'd be a little better than that. Hiding behind an avatar should not remove civility from the discussion.

As to the substance of my comment, see, e.g., dude's comments, the '75 mini thread, and undersized cards in holders online as starting points. Beyond that, OTW is spot on. Those who go into specifics about alterations on this board are generally roasted; there's a reason for that.

Ron Burgundy

Flintboy · August 26, 2008 6:08AM

You can always politic to have the new set added,the vintage mini 62 topps set. All kidding aside, if you dont think there are guys using laser trimmers, xacto knives, and sand paper to flip cards, then your head needs to be examined. It really baffles me that educated people refuse to acknowledge the fact that altering cards ia VERY much alive and well in this hobby. The question is if anyone is going to step up and do anything about it. I bet that someone will eventually, for one reason or another , decide to take on the giants and try to clean up the hobby.....

HammeringHank · August 26, 2008 6:42AM

Wow...the question was really simple "where do all these new vintage cards keep coming from"...then for some reason the question went to the "dark" side...

I think the answer is much more simplier then some of you may have thought of...the years mentioned 59-64 are basically your baby-boomer age group (beginning of it anyway)...these people are now in the early 60's...I think there are boxs and boxes and tons of stuff that is still hidden in people closet, warehouse, attics...etc...that has been forgotten...and will still be found...as these people die...just for starters...

Let's use "me" as an example...I have 61-62-63 sets that I collected (and stored) myself when they were brand-new...none of them have ever seen the grading table...many of these cards are prestine...I think I have around 1000 of these cards...again never been seen by anyone accept me...never been graded...are there others like me?...I think yes...when and if these get graded...then they will add to the population...and then you will wonder "where are these cards coming from"...

They are still out there!

I know there are trimmed cards in this hobby we all know that...are there that many that would impact the population? Not sure...those that want to argue about that...can do so...but I think what I just expressed is what is really going on...

PSARich · August 26, 2008 10:00AM

Well, so far I have ascertained the following reasons why the flow of vintage cards continues to the grading companies:

1. There are plenty of raw vintage cards still out there and nobody knows how many, only that the supply does not seem to be diminishing.

2. There are many aging collectors with ungraded collections or shoe boxes filled with cards, and many of these collections are being found,
sold, and graded.

3. There are a lot card doctors still at work who continually and magically turn ex-mint and near mint cards into PSA 9's, SGC 96's and BGS
9's and card grading companies are either fooled or can't or don't put a halt to this unethical process.

I certainly don't know the foolproof answer or I wouldn't have posed the question. I would hope that we just don't have a good handle on the amount of raw, ungraded, high condition cards that are still out there. I do know that at each National I am able to find some mint cards that when graded, come back 9's. Last year it was a 1973 Nolan Ryan, this year a 1966 Frank Robinson. So some dealers don't adhere to card grading as some of you shared. However, they are hard to find. I haven't heard of any big vintage card finds in my area lately but when I ask dealers at shows about where they get their stock, they often talk about people that find or inherit collections that they buy. Maybe there is still a lot of collections being found and sold as others stated. Thanks to all for your comments.

natsfan · August 26, 2008 11:31AM

An excellent and informative discussion, so thank you PSARich. The idea of collectors cracking open high grade cards raises another issue: They'd still have the cert. number of a card they removed from the case. Does anybody think people with sets on the registry crack open cards, re-submit or sell them, while keeping the original cert. number in the registry? That's certainly one way the registry and pop. numbers could be distorted. Am I being paranoid?

Flintboy · August 26, 2008 11:38AM

I think the pop reports on 9,s and 10,s are pretty accurate. I know quite a few people who crack and resubmit who dont let PSA know that the card received the bump. That being the case, I am quite sure the pop reports from 8 on down is not real accurate at all.

mariner · August 26, 2008 12:52PM

I agree with Henri.....I am a long time collector too and while I do have graded sets in 1959-1963, I also have complete raw sets starting in 1955 and extending to 1990 that are in albums and none of the cards are graded. My 1955 -1958 are probably about EX-MT overall but starting in 1964, the sets are very high grade. Many raw cards that have never seen the insides of the grading rooms.

Boopotts · August 26, 2008 12:59PM

<< Wow...the question was really simple "where do all these new vintage cards keep coming from"...then for some reason the question went to the "dark" side...

I think the answer is much more simplier then some of you may have thought of...the years mentioned 59-64 are basically your baby-boomer age group (beginning of it anyway)...these people are now in the early 60's...I think there are boxs and boxes and tons of stuff that is still hidden in people closet, warehouse, attics...etc...that has been forgotten...and will still be found...as these people die...just for starters...

Let's use "me" as an example...I have 61-62-63 sets that I collected (and stored) myself when they were brand-new...none of them have ever seen the grading table...many of these cards are prestine...I think I have around 1000 of these cards...again never been seen by anyone accept me...never been graded...are there others like me?...I think yes...when and if these get graded...then they will add to the population...and then you will wonder "where are these cards coming from"...

They are still out there!

I know there are trimmed cards in this hobby we all know that...are there that many that would impact the population? Not sure...those that want to argue about that...can do so...but I think what I just expressed is what is really going on... >>

I mentioned this to Lee before, but I just wanted to let Henri know that he has what is far and away the coolest avatar in the history of these boards.

Edit to add: If you're wondering where the avatar comes from check out the banners in the beginning of the following video Mixing in a nod to Floyd with an avatar that meshes with your username? I don't think it gets better than that.

dude · August 26, 2008 10:14PM

<<I mentioned this to Lee before, but I just wanted to let Henri know that he has what is far and away the coolest avatar in the history of these boards.

Edit to add: If you're wondering where the avatar comes from check out the banners in the beginning of the following video Mixing in a nod to Floyd with an avatar that meshes with your username? I don't think it gets better than that. >>

Am I missing something here or are you just being sarcastic? I just watched the video and that double hammer logo is warn by what appears to be Skinheads who are mercilessly attacking minorities. What's so cool about that?

Boopotts · August 26, 2008 10:18PM

<< <<I mentioned this to Lee before, but I just wanted to let Henri know that he has what is far and away the coolest avatar in the history of these boards.

Edit to add: If you're wondering where the avatar comes from check out the banners in the beginning of the following video Mixing in a nod to Floyd with an avatar that meshes with your username? I don't think it gets better than that. >>

Am I missing something here or are you just being sarcastic? I just watched the video and that double hammer logo is warn by what appears to be Skinheads who are mercilessly attacking minorities. What's so cool about that? >>

Maybe you have to see the whole movie to get it. Sufficient to say 'The Wall' in general-- or 'Run Like Hell' in particular-- does not champion the persecution of minorities.

Morgoth · August 26, 2008 10:46PM

Pink Floyd errr Roger Waters was using the Hammer symbol like a swastika to show how the character has now changed due to events in his life. By becoming alienated from humanity he became to despise and hate those different than him. The character in the movie morphs from being a broken down drug user into this racist character.

At some level these are just different sides of someones personality that could come out given the right stresses and though this one is extreme it is effective to show how one really charismatic person (like a hitler or a rock star) could cause alot of trouble and have people blindly following them just because of who they are (which the movie is saying is a bad thing, think for yourself people).

HammeringHank · August 27, 2008 4:37AM

Hold the fort here folks...you give me too much credit for my avatar...there is a simpler answer and it has nothing to do with this video...until today that I've never seen before...

First...Hank is Henri...next HammeringHank is Hank Aaron...I've also been called that during my softball playing days...hence the HammeringHank name...the avatar is (was) available on Collectors Uinverse...it was the closest thing that I could select to the name I had picked...

Having seen the video...I am not sure that I really like the avatar anymore...

1960toppsguy · August 28, 2008 12:59PM

I buy nice looking high end cards for the given grade and bust em and put them is sleeves so they dont take up so much space. I know what I have and that is all that matters in my world.

New labels indicate vintage cards keep coming

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