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A Closer Look At Some NNC Graded Coins...
Tyler1924S
Posts: 1,328
Thought I would post some images of NNC graded coins. These were submitted by CRC LLC. (NARU'd ebay seller "simplycoins!", currently using the name "4evercoins"). I'll refrain from making any comments about them, as tempting as that may be.
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RJ knows how to grade, he won the PCGS World Series of Grading. When it comes to self slabbing his NNC "company", he chooses not to.
<< <i>RJ knows how to grade, he won the PCGS World Series of Grading. When it comes to self slabbing his NNC "company", he chooses not to. >>
I think that's a great way to put it. He chooses not to, and he chooses to look the other way.
every dealer there to walk him back out the door and slam it shut
behind them.
oh he has money you say? lots of it? welcome friend, step right up
to my table. i have some coins to show you!
<< <i>About what I would've expected. I can't agree with any of those grades. >>
<< <i> I'll refrain from making any comments about them, as tempting as that may be. >>
A picture is worth a thousand words!
.....................................................
EBAY Items
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrlamir
Please note that they think this is the year 2007.
NNC Link
(edited for typo.)
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>Which are crap......
let's try again. WHAT standards MUST a grading service use? WHAT constitutes fraud? Slabbing a cleaned or AT coin?
Slabbing a coin as Mint State with obvious wear? Grading an 1804 dollar known to be a "Cleaned, rubbed, impaired Proof" as Proof-65?
Just some commen sense would be a great start. It doesnt matter what holder or even if its in a holder, if its a 65 its a 65. If its a 65 rd its a 65 rd. Im not saying PCGS and NGC are perfect, but they are perfect when compared to the above mentioned service.
Not a single one of those coins is graded accurately.
Im sure there are overgraded coins in the top 3 holder's, but not nearly as many as the others.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
Their slabs stink, ther standars obviously stink, and their coins stink.
That 51 Pr66Cam Lincoln says it all. Crap!
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
The criteria was;
1. I would spend as little as possible.
2. I would use NNC's serial number lookup feature and NOT purchase any submitted by ebay seller centsles, owner of NNC, OR ebay seller simplycoins! (CRC LLC).
3. There had to be adequate photos.
Consequently, I was very happy with the three I purchased. The two dimes were overgraded, as expected, but were not problem coins. Here's the '37-D just before it was cracked out of the "slab".
I recorded the 1937-D as MS-64FB and the 1944-D as MS-64. Both original & problem free. They were both submitted by TNFC. The 1924-D was cracked out and posted on another thread where it was pretty much unanimously graded VF-20. It was submitted by Collect Source. I paid about $16.00 for both dimes. I paid $12.50 for the Buffalo.
I'm not suggesting every last one of NNC's coins is a waste of time. Again, much of this depends on WHO submitted the coins. About 85% of the time, however, that's going to be centsles. Worse yet, it could be simplycoins!/4evercoins with something like the 1931-S Lincoln. A botched attempt to re-color a dipped AU coin, and it's graded 65RD.
My grade for the '44-D is MS-64. I could see others going 65. Not quite Full Bands on this one.
This one retained the VF-20 grade.
That reverse looks like it has the pox.
Did I read that right...the person that slabs these coins KNOWS HOW TO GRADE on the Sheldon Scale that the big companies use? And won a PCGS grading contest to prove it?
Then it is willful misconduct in my opinion. It is a disservice to the hobby to do this.
A buyer of one of these coins, using that numeric grade to index into any price list will cause economic damage to that buyer.
That buyer may become disillusioned very quickly with the hobby if these slabbed coins are their first experience.
At the Santa Clara show, I believe I saw two folks that had NNC slabs. It is a disservice to those dealers, as I passed ALL of their wares by. Guilt by association is strong with NNC slabs; if you are selling even one of these, then I trust none of your wares.
It is interesting how every once in a while there is a decent coin in these slabs. That is a shame because I will probably not waste my time filtering through NNC products looking for those coins. I guess that is an opportunity for others.
I dont think I have or will ever look at a coin in an NNc slab seriously for purchasing. Sorry, Just my opinion.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>
<< <i>Which are crap......
let's try again. WHAT standards MUST a grading service use? WHAT constitutes fraud? Slabbing a cleaned or AT coin?
Slabbing a coin as Mint State with obvious wear? Grading an 1804 dollar known to be a "Cleaned, rubbed, impaired Proof" as Proof-65? >>
Frank, was it NNC slabbed coins you sell/sold? I seem to recall you being upset with ebay and their new rules since you sell/sold coins that were in questionable holders (well, questionable to anyone who follows common standards of grading
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>Which are crap......
let's try again. WHAT standards MUST a grading service use? WHAT constitutes fraud? Slabbing a cleaned or AT coin?
Slabbing a coin as Mint State with obvious wear? Grading an 1804 dollar known to be a "Cleaned, rubbed, impaired Proof" as Proof-65? >>
Yeah, but this is egregious, and you know it. I also understand your Libertarian-esq opinion, and tend to agree that the Man should not be expected to save the uneducated from themselves. Still, I do not respect anything about the perpetrator of what I consider to be misrepresentation at best, and outright fraud at worst.
The standards, as you point out, are not rigidly set in stone, however, there are common standards well known by educated collectors and resonably consistantly applied by top TPG's (despite a few outliers like you have enumerated in this thread as well as in the past).
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
coinsarefun, marmac, LindeDad, andree, robkool, TwoSides2aCoin, waterzooey, agentjim007
All were A++++ Transactions- Thank you !
<< <i>So subtract two or three grades from the number on the label, and you'll be OK -- if the coin wasn't cleaned, that is.
Unfortunately they all seem to be cleaned -- and badly.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
Bochiman: Frank, was it NNC slabbed coins you sell/sold? I seem to recall you being upset with ebay and their new rules since you sell/sold coins that were in questionable holders (well, questionable to anyone who follows common standards of grading
I am a PCGS and NGC dealer, only occasionally sold an oddball slab. I do wish you would spend less time composing snappy insults and more
time making some comments which require analysis.
"Common standards of Grading" do not exist. When a PCGS-70 is worth $10,000 and an NGC-70 is worth $100, and those are the TOP TWO
services, how do you reconcile what the actual grade is, and under what standard, since there is the ANA guide, Photograde, and B&D, and 4 major services
each using their own unpublished standards. The grading services guarantee that the coins are graded to THEIR OWN standards, and ONLY THEY
make the decision that they made a mistake! There are no government standards for coin grading, no licensing standards, and as you can see from
the "guess the grade" posts here, knowlegeable collectors often give the same coin grades ranging from EF40 to MS66!
Under these circumstances, ebay's requirement that coins from SEGS and PCI, as well as from both highly respected Canadian services, must be considered
RAW, and you cannot MENTION THE NAME OF THE SERVICE ANYWHERE is simply bizarre.
<< <i>Yeah, but this is egregious, and you know it. I also understand your Libertarian-esq opinion, and tend to agree that the Man should not be expected to save the uneducated from themselves. Still, I do not respect anything about the perpetrator of what I consider to be misrepresentation at best, and outright fraud at worst.
The standards, as you point out, are not rigidly set in stone, however, there are common standards well known by educated collectors and resonably consistantly applied by top TPG's (despite a few outliers like you have enumerated in this thread as well as in the past). >>
As an engineer in aeronautical test systems, I am NOT libertarian-esq on this subject. But "common standards well known by educated collectors" sounds
awfully like "I know pornographywhen I see it." A gallon is 231 in³ and a pound is 453 grams.. I don't want gas stations or the grocery store setting their own
standards. But unless there is a LEGAL STANDARD to what AU50 or MS63 is, the argument will always come down to, as you said, WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE fraud. And
you can't protect collectors as long as coin grading is seen by the legal system as 'just an opinion...an art, not a science" That's how the ANA lost a "sure thing" lawsuit
30 years ago against a Texas coin whizzing factory.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Bochiman: Frank, was it NNC slabbed coins you sell/sold? I seem to recall you being upset with ebay and their new rules since you sell/sold coins that were in questionable holders (well, questionable to anyone who follows common standards of grading
I am a PCGS and NGC dealer, only occasionally sold an oddball slab. I do wish you would spend less time composing snappy insults and more
time making some comments which require analysis.
"Common standards of Grading" do not exist. When a PCGS-70 is worth $10,000 and an NGC-70 is worth $100, and those are the TOP TWO
services, how do you reconcile what the actual grade is, and under what standard, since there is the ANA guide, Photograde, and B&D, and 4 major services
each using their own unpublished standards. The grading services guarantee that the coins are graded to THEIR OWN standards, and ONLY THEY
make the decision that they made a mistake! There are no government standards for coin grading, no licensing standards, and as you can see from
the "guess the grade" posts here, knowlegeable collectors often give the same coin grades ranging from EF40 to MS66!
Under these circumstances, ebay's requirement that coins from SEGS and PCI, as well as from both highly respected Canadian services, must be considered
RAW, and you cannot MENTION THE NAME OF THE SERVICE ANYWHERE is simply bizarre. >>
I disagree with your assertions of value and grading differentials between top-tier TPG's. I believe that your argument is spurious as regards PCGS and NGC price differentials, and in applying those differentials to address the actions of NNC or other (large quote)"TPG's" not held in as high regard as the top 2.
A company grading to its' own standard will be judged by the market, and the products of these respective companies will be discounted according to the markets' perspective of value. This value will, I believe, be based in the long run upon the perceived ability of a knowledgable buyer ability to successfully resell the subject coin to another knowlegeable buyer at a later time. I define success as a transaction with, in the worst case, a minimum loss to the seller.
While a wide price differential may exist between PCGS and NGC for a few coins, using the example of modern MS70's as a broad basis for the general argument is defective logically. Across the spectrum of classic coins, this wide differential as claimed does not commonly exist, and the knowledgeable collector understands that both companies have classic coin series in which they are particularly adept.
The lower tier services are able to operate in the market freely, and use the assertion that there are no published grading standards to which they must adhere. In doing so, most often their products are routinely discounted - sometimes unfairly, frequently very much fairly - substantially by the knowledgeable market.
There is a portion of the market that does not understand this grading disparity - whether due to lack of knowledge, greed, or some combination of both. These are the buyers who are injured financially by sellers freely representing coins for sale using inflated grades based upon some nebulous "private" grading standard which has nothing in common with those grading standards that are used and understood by the bulk of knowledgable market actors.
Finally, using the argument that "guess the grade" threads commonly have participants apart by more than 25 points on the Sheldon scale is a red herring. To begin with, it is commonly understood here that grading by photograph alone is somewhere between difficult and impossible - it's good fun, but has no financial impact on the contributors. Secondly, and in common with my previous observation on your application of logic to your arguments, you tend to broadly apply the most egregious disparities - outliers both in the market and on the board - to support your positions.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>RJ knows how to grade, he won the PCGS World Series of Grading. When it comes to self slabbing his NNC "company", he chooses not to. >>
I think that's a great way to put it. He chooses not to, and he chooses to look the other way. >>
I agree!
Just goes to show you that it's not about grading standards but rather ETHICS...and some choose to overlook doing the right thing in life.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the Old Oak Tree ....
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
is it a $15 coin in $700 clothes?
<< <i>At the Santa Clara show, I believe I saw two folks that had NNC slabs. It is a disservice to those dealers, as I passed ALL of their wares by. Guilt by association is strong with NNC slabs; if you are selling even one of these, then I trust none of your wares. >>
Experienced collectors are reasonably suspicious of any coin in a NNC holder. When a dealer has any of their slabs I assume, rightly or wrongly, that they are trying to sell to novices impressed with words like "National" and "Certification". I pass by those dealers without a second glance.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
which big companies are you talking about that use the Sheldon Scale???
about the only thing i feel confident about with regard to Third Party Grading is that PCGS currently sets the standard by which the hobby interprets what a coin grade is, they lead and everyone else follows based on what they say. about the only users of the Sheldon Scale are individual collectors and perhaps certain specialty organizations, but even some of them have their own way of grading. to make matters worse, the Sheldon Scale was originally intended for establishing a pricing scale for a single series, so thinking of it being a grading scale for the complete issues of the US is a fantasy at best and a joke at worst. maybe the best way to think of things when it comes to TPG Companies is they each seem to have their own grading approach(perhaps outlined in some Mission Statement, perhaps not) and the hobby tends to agree with what the approach is at PCGS most closely.