Are Jeter's Skills/Numbers [Finally] Diminishing?
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
1. I didn't think Jeter had any chance of breaking Pete Rose's record for career hits; and
2. I would love to see Jeter break Rose's records ... though (see 1 above) I don't it will happen.
That said, I just looked at Jeter's numbers for the season and he's on pace to set career lows in, well, just about everything. Granted, the Yankees have had a lot of injuries this year, but Jeter's BA (.281) is 34 points below his career average (.315), his OPS is down 108 points, he's on pace for 175 hits (which is pretty good, but his last three seasons have been 206, 214 and 202), he's on pace to score only 91 runs, etc.
Thoughts?
/s/ JackWESQ
2. I would love to see Jeter break Rose's records ... though (see 1 above) I don't it will happen.
That said, I just looked at Jeter's numbers for the season and he's on pace to set career lows in, well, just about everything. Granted, the Yankees have had a lot of injuries this year, but Jeter's BA (.281) is 34 points below his career average (.315), his OPS is down 108 points, he's on pace for 175 hits (which is pretty good, but his last three seasons have been 206, 214 and 202), he's on pace to score only 91 runs, etc.
Thoughts?
/s/ JackWESQ
0
Comments
Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, but this is one of my official duties.
Now as far as breaking Rose's record, I know a lot of people have been predicting that will happen, but I think it's premature to say that. After all, he is still like 1,500 away...and that's A LOT of hits. We'll see. He is on track to reach 3,000 in 2010.
BTW, if anyone ever needs proof of how great a player Jeter is, just look at how much BoSox fans HATE him. That's the ultimate compliment.
You mean, this is the guy that got ROBBED of the MVP 2 years ago....I know I'm a Sox fan, but, yes, I said it!
It could be the start of the decline, I don't think he'll get within 500 hits of Rose....
<< <i><<<Remember, this is the guy who finished 2nd in the MVP race (and almost won the batting crown) 2 years ago>>>
You mean, this is the guy that got ROBBED of the MVP 2 years ago....I know I'm a Sox fan, but, yes, I said it!
>>
Cool. At least some Red Sox fans haven't let their J.D.S. (Jeter Derangment Sydrome) blind them from the fact he is a GREAT player.
<< <i>In the 1984 MLB season and 2/3 of the way into the 1985 season, one player grounded into more double plays (60) than any two Yankees combined. >>
That was when we stopped calling him "Jim Ed" and started calling him "6-4-3".
As for Jeter, I'll bet he has a few good years left in him.
Bosox1976
<< <i>I heard on WFAN they had a study which combined range and error percentage and Jeter was the WORST rated defensive SS in the American League or somenonsense... anyone know of that statistical survey? >>
Of course I do - I have quoted it (and many other similar articles) here time and time again. The Jeter nuts refuse to believe any of it.
Jeter's Horrible Defense
This study came from the University Of Pennsylvania's Wharton School earlier this year. I suppose those guys aren't that smart, though.
Steve
I think Jeter's chances of breaking Rose's record is around 3% but I have not checked that in a while.
Steve - You might want to revise that statement. Last time I checked Mike Timlin has as many rings as Jeter.
<< <i>Jeter has twice as many rings then any Red Sox player.
Steve >>
Okay, but so what?
That argument comes up from time to time, and the answer is that he was a cog in a very expensive wheel. If you put him in Kansas City in the 1990's, he would have squat - and still suck on defense.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
So does Tino Martinez....so I guess that makes him an all-time great as well.
The "rings" argument only holds in basketball (where one guy really can lead a team to a championship), and even that is debatable. It's a pointless argument in every other team sport.
for real.
You cannot expect Jeter to hit .320/.330 anymore and .290/.300 is probably more realistic.
I like Jeter and is a first ballot HOFer. Don't be surprise if he leaves the Yankees in three/four years. Just look
at Favre, Montana, and others.
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard here and I have heard alot.
The guy is a major league ballplayer for god sakes.
Sucks? compared to who? I don't think any major league SS sucks.
There are 30 or slightly more in all the world and you say he sucks? lol
Take a chew and walk it off.
I just love guys who prolly can't walk and chew gum at the same time say a major league Ball player sucks.
You would suck at SS. He is among the elite.
Your comparisons and stats to the contrary are ridiculous.
It never ceases to amaze me how freaking jealous some people are.
Give the guy his due. And move on.
Steve
So does Tino Martinez....so I guess that makes him an all-time great as well.
Sorry but that was not my point, but good try anyway.
The bottom line is (and the point i was trying to make) is that these so called experts are JEALOUS.
Sucks on defense!! LOL
Steve
Geez i wonder who that is?
Jim Rice?
Another player that sucks. lol
You guys that claim elite major league ballplayers suck need to get a grip.
Did any of you ever actually play the game?
Steve
Revised to say won with the Red Sox.
Steve
I am not jealous of Jeter. I grabbed him for my fantasy team the first time he came to the majors. He will deservedly waltz into the HOF on the 1st ballot, and I would love to have him on the Braves. I am not a Red Sox fan.
He is still somewhere between a poor and absolutely awful defensive SS, and has been throughout his career. He is one of the best defensive SSs compared to the world at large; compared to other major league SSs he is not so good.
And yes, a GREAT team leader too! Lets not hear crap about that because Varitek is as well but only half the offensive player! He's also good at defense but certainly no wizard!
<< <i>
You would suck at SS. He is among the elite.
Your comparisons and stats to the contrary are ridiculous.
Steve >>
Okay, I'll give you that. He can probably play better defensive SS in the major leagues than I can. Probably.
And, those are not my stats - they are Jeter's stats. And, his fielding stats suck.
The comparisons aren't even mine - I was just passing on a study done this year at the University Of Pennsylvania. Why do stats and facts like that bother the Jeter faithful so much?
<< <i>In the 1984 MLB season and 2/3 of the way into the 1985 season, one player grounded into more double plays (60) than any two Yankees combined. For a guy who is perceived by Red Sox fans as HOF material, that's a whole lot of rallies single-handedly killed.
Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, but this is one of my official duties. >>
I would LOVE for the Red Sox fan koolaide dinking nut cases to rip off every one of their beloved Sox greats who even SNIFFED 3,000 hits. Its a simple question that every Sox fan on this board has completely ignored every time I ask it. Because, you can count that number of beloved Sox greats on one finger. All of the sudden Jeter's defense becomes the key argument in these stupid debate because even they are not dumb enough to question that.
Lets hear it ctsoxfan ...
Now, go ahead, "LIST" all of those Red SOx beloved and sacred greats who sniffed 3,000 hits.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Also, Steve: you've clearly not watched enough baseball because anyone that has watched baseball this year would know better than to say that no major league SS sucks. Have you not seen Julio Lugo play?
<< <i>In the 1984 MLB season and 2/3 of the way into the 1985 season, one player grounded into more double plays (60) than any two Yankees combined. For a guy who is perceived by Red Sox fans as HOF material, that's a whole lot of rallies single-handedly killed.
Geez i wonder who that is?
Jim Rice?
Another player that sucks. lol
You guys that claim elite major league ballplayers suck need to get a grip.
Did any of you ever actually play the game?
Steve >>
Now calm down there, Steve. I have never said that Jim Rice sucked - I said he was almost exactly as good as Chili Davis. Chili Davis had a career I'd give my left marble to have had. I would give more to have had a HOF career, but neither Chili nor 6-4-3 had one of those.
Mostly, I just found it kind of funny that a Red Sox fan would pick GIDP as the measure of a player not being as good as people think he is. ctsoxfan is correct, of course; high GIDP totals detract a LOT from the value of a player - 36 in one season at the top level, 39 in a season and a half at a lower level. Hence, the irony.
3000 hits with the Sox that is.
Clearly it is ignorance for anyone to claim Jeter is a defensive liability.
Dallas i was agreeing with you earlier with your comment regarding Rice.
My 'lol' must have thrown you a curve.
Steve
BTW, Yaz accumulated 3,419 hits with the Red Sox.
Not sure what Dan meant.
Steve
I think Dan was saying only 1 Red Sox has done it and Jeter should end up with 3500.
Whatever that means.
By the way according to baseball reference com his fielding stats are ABOVE the major league average so I have no idea
what certain jealous Sox fans are talking about.
lol
<< <i>So I guess the point is that there has never been a Red Sox or a Yankee player to collect 3000 hits and bat over .300 then. I fail to see why Yankee fans are asking Sox fans to list the guys that have "sniffed" 3000 hits since it's not like the Yankees have a history of doing so. >>
OMG .... the blind as a bat virus of Sox fans continues
the point is Von, and ALWAYS has and especially with ctsoxfan ..... how does a guy like Derek Jeter get the abuse from Yankee haters and especially Red Sox fans when he will inevitably do something that only ONE Red SOx player in their history has been able to do?
I don't mean to be too harsh Von but you can take your backlash question about "sniffing" 3,000 hits to me and shove it in a dirty Red Sox somewhere. NO YANKEE FAN ANYWHERE near this board trys to diminish a great Red Sox player in such a fashion. We might laugh about Papi's weight, or about Papelbon's border line gay face has he looks in to the catcher, or Youkalis certainly gay batting stance as he wiggles his hips ...... but what we DON'T DO is search the depths of the internet for articles and stats on FLAWS that every great player in the game has had and post them as "evidence" found that bla bla bla is not that great of a player.
Now that I have spelled this out for you I really really hope you are not naive enough to come back with the "sniffing" question because you obviously MISREAD the intent of that post. For me to tell you that ZERO NY Yankees have ever reached 3,000 hits does WONDERS for my defense of this ludicrous campaign to try and knock down Derek Jeter. Not only has only one Boston Red Sox ever been able to do this ..... but ZERO New York Yankees and all of their all time greats have been able to do it.
Comprende?
Now, EXUUUSE me for editing a post
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>So I guess the point is that there has never been a Red Sox or a Yankee player to collect 3000 hits and bat over .300 then. I fail to see why Yankee fans are asking Sox fans to list the guys that have "sniffed" 3000 hits since it's not like the Yankees have a history of doing so. >>
Missed this post. Would have saved me alot of writing. Von, you are way off on my intention regarding this matter. Your post above SOLIDIFYS my position. Insert Derek Jeter into the first part and then explain to me why so many Sox fans and Yankee haters run to the only flaw the guy has.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>explain to me why so many Sox fans and Yankee haters run to the only flaw the guy has. >>
So then, you finally admit that half of his game is flawed? Wow, the skies are opening! It's a miracle!
I don't have to go to the depths of the internet (where exactly is that?) to find articles regarding Jeter's defensive issues. They are easy to find, but perhaps in New York they are somehow banned from all computers, magazines, and newspapers.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>OMG .... the blind as a bat virus of Sox fans continues
the point is Von, and ALWAYS has and especially with ctsoxfan ..... how does a guy like Derek Jeter get the abuse from Yankee haters and especially Red Sox fans when he will inevitably do something that only ONE Red SOx player in their history has been able to do?
I don't mean to be too harsh Von but you can take your backlash question about "sniffing" 3,000 hits to me and shove it in a dirty Red Sox somewhere. NO YANKEE FAN ANYWHERE near this board trys to diminish a great Red Sox player in such a fashion. We might laugh about Papi's weight, or about Papelbon's border line gay face has he looks in to the catcher, or Youkalis certainly gay batting stance as he wiggles his hips ...... but what we DON'T DO is search the depths of the internet for articles and stats on FLAWS that every great player in the game has had and post them as "evidence" found that bla bla bla is not that great of a player.
Now that I have spelled this out for you I really really hope you are not naive enough to come back with the "sniffing" question because you obviously MISREAD the intent of that post. For me to tell you that ZERO NY Yankees have ever reached 3,000 hits does WONDERS for my defense of this ludicrous campaign to try and knock down Derek Jeter. Not only has only one Boston Red Sox ever been able to do this ..... but ZERO New York Yankees and all of their all time greats have been able to do it.
Comprende?
Now, EXUUUSE me for editing a post
Easy there pardner. What's that, about an 11 on the ol' tension scale? I don't understand why you have to come out with both fists blazing. I obviously didn't understand what you were getting at (and I don't think I'm alone in that given that others also posted that they didn't know what you were getting at).
I don't understand what you mean by my "backlash question about 'sniffing' 3,000 hits." You not only asked the question on this thread and another thread and then pointed out that nobody had answered it yet. So you take offense when someone does answer it? If you meant it to be a rhetorical question, your intent was very unclear. I think my initial response was appropriate. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by stating that I must be missing something because I couldn't find any Yankee hitters with 3,000 hits.
If you were to have told me that ZERO Yankees had reached 3,000 hits and that it looks like Jeter might, that would have strengthed your argument, but you didn't say that. You simply asked us to list the Red Sox players that had. I believe I was the first on this thread to point out no Yankee had done that. Not that you'd want to, but if you read all my posts, I don't think you'd ever find me saying anything about Jeter sucking.
<< <i>
<< <i>explain to me why so many Sox fans and Yankee haters run to the only flaw the guy has. >>
So then, you finally admit that half of his game is flawed? Wow, the skies are opening! It's a miracle!
I don't have to go to the depths of the internet (where exactly is that?) to find articles regarding Jeter's defensive issues. They are easy to find, but perhaps in New York they are somehow banned from all computers, magazines, and newspapers. >>
Half the game
I AM NOT SAYING THAT but your moronic nit picking at Jeters defense as a reason he is not a great ball player is just laughable. I will accept ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS on Jeter when you come here and declare that not only does David Ortiz play half the game FOR REAL because he SUCKS so bad that not even the local beer league softball team would put him in the field, but he has NO PLACE in history as anything close to even a decent ballplayer.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Half the game
Technically, defense is half the game. But pitching is somewhere around 2/3 of defense, so what we think of as defense is about 1/6 of the game. Since offense is the other half of the game, for an offensive player defense represents (1/6)/(1/2 + 1/6)* or 1/4 of his value and offense the other 3/4.
Of course, that's an average and it varies a great deal by position. For an historically typical weak-hitting shortstop, defense is about half the game (sometimes much more); for a great hitter like Jeter, probably about a third.
* Division of fractions brought to you by a proud member of the American Academy of Actuaries.
what can I say except I was once again floored by a comment from ctsox about Derek Jeter. I was not thinking about "half" of the game in the well presented terms that a guy like yourself who probably does not have any emotional ties to the debate.
My point was ..... if defense is "half" the game as Jerry stated and that "half" of the game is what Jerry pounds on to try and get his ludicrous points across .... then what is a VERY WELL REVERED player in Boston such as David Ortiz? well ..... that would have to be a BIG FAT NOTHING according to Jerry.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
And I, too, find it more than a little bit annoying that I am supposed to treat a DH (Webster's: one whose defensive skills are incredibly poor. antonym: baseball player) as if it is a position. As in "so-and-so is the best at the DH position so he should be in the HOF". When the "position" in question is planting one's rear on the bench so as not to get in the way of the people playing baseball, I'm just not buying it and I never will.
I think it goes without saying that Derek Jeter's contributions to the Yankees have far exceeded Ortiz's contributions to the Red Sox. Well, I can hope anyway.
And while I'm on a roll, what exactly is the evidence that Jeter is given more credit than he deserves? The man has never won an MVP but was clearly robbed in 2006 coming in 2nd, would have been my pick in 1999 but came in 6th, and was a perfectly reasonable choice in 1998 but came in third.
<< <i>I think it goes without saying that Derek Jeter's contributions to the Yankees have far exceeded Ortiz's contributions to the Red Sox. Well, I can hope anyway. >>
Neither of us could ever prove this conclusively, of course, but I feel (pretty strongly, actually) that Ortiz has been more valuable to the Sox over the last 5-6 years than Jeter has ever been in NY. I am pretty sure that the Yankees would have won just fine with Luis Sojo, or someone similar, at SS during the 90's (what's that sound? It's Dan's head exploding!) but the Sox wouldn't have been the powerhouse offense that they have been without Ortiz. Ortiz made Manny an even more productive hitter, and while all I ever hear is how Jeter is so "clutch" (totally incorrect) if you really want to lookup what a clutch hitter does, then reference Big Papi circa 2004-2007.
Yeah, he is right .... NONE of that has meant anything to Yankee offensive success and multiple World Series Championships during his career
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
<< <i>I am pretty sure that the Yankees would have won just fine with Luis Sojo, or someone similar, at SS during the 90's (what's that sound? It's Dan's head exploding!) but the Sox wouldn't have been the powerhouse offense that they have been without Ortiz. >>
That argument (Ortiz is better because his teammates are worse) just doesn't hold water. Yes, the 1998 Yankees probably would have won with me at SS (or at 1B, or at 2B, etc.) - they were arguably the greatest team to ever take the field and the loss of any one player still would leave them as the best team that year. To use that as an argument that each and every player on that team wasn't that good is 180 degrees wrong. In point of fact, I don't think Jeter, Williams and O'Neill get nearly the credit they deserve for their part in our generation's version of the 1927 Yankees. And more than any other player on it, it was Jeter that moved that team from great to legendary.
I will grant you this, though: Ortiz is more valuable sitting on the bench than he is with a glove on his hand playing in the field. Which is, of course, why his manager won't let him own a glove.