Got stuck with fakes - what's my recourse?
philipjgolden
Posts: 256
Hello all. Bought a collection in May. Some of the key cards turned out to be fakes:
Seaver rookie, Ryan rookie, 67 B Robinson, Bench rookie.
Anyway, after a long and drawn out email for months, it's clear this guy isn't going to take any responsibility and is living in fantasy world about his responsibility (offered me $80 as "best and final offer.")
So, I'm going to small claims court. Does anyone know relevant laws re: what I can/should sue for? I have been Googling for past hour but coming up empty.
Book value? Are there penalities? I was going to get Seaver and Ryan graded. Guess nothing i can do about that. Thoughts?
Seaver rookie, Ryan rookie, 67 B Robinson, Bench rookie.
Anyway, after a long and drawn out email for months, it's clear this guy isn't going to take any responsibility and is living in fantasy world about his responsibility (offered me $80 as "best and final offer.")
So, I'm going to small claims court. Does anyone know relevant laws re: what I can/should sue for? I have been Googling for past hour but coming up empty.
Book value? Are there penalities? I was going to get Seaver and Ryan graded. Guess nothing i can do about that. Thoughts?
yabbadabbadoo
0
Comments
e-bay needs mandatory paypal payments, no excuse.
friggin joke, all things considered, HONESTLY!
jesus
J
RIP GURU
Was it on ebay? Do you have a printed copy of the ebay auction with pics, so you can prove the cards you have in your posession are the
same ones he sold?
I am curious as to what the law is, if he is in one state and you are in another, who has to go where for court?
Got an EBAY auction number?
..................
Depending on where you both live, Small Claims might be a good option.
If you paid by credit-card, simply file a chargeback.
sold the robinson on ebay and immediately buyer said i need refund ($125 or so), this is counterfeit and explained. before i even got that card back, found that the others matched the same description (whiter, stiffer card stock is main giveaway). brought the other 3 cards into a shop and guy there verified what i already knew.
mailed back to him (with delivery conf) and have long email trail saying that he has them, etc., see that they are a bit thicker and stiffer, etc. Issue is not that he doesn't believe me, it's that he doesn't want to pay to make it right.
question i have for board is not the one you are answering as much as what is the legalities? what does the law say about counterfeit cards? i have learned that a card shop who sells counterfeits is liable up to 10x high book value (!) - I do not know what the sitch is with private people.
i have scans of front of cards, but not backs, which are telltale. Fronts look very very real. L.A. card shop guy said best he had seen, for whatever that's worth.
again, if anyone knows the legalities, that's really all i'm looking for. the rest is conjecture, and i can live with winging that.
How much money are we talking about?
Selling fake cards as real, is actionable.
Treble-Damages - or multiple damages - are often applicable
only when the losing party is a commercial enterprise, but not in all
jurisdictions.
You don't use a lawyer, if you are the Plaintiff in Small Claims.
The clerk will show you how to fill out the forms, and the sheriff
will serve them for you. If you get lucky, the def won't show up
for court, and you can win by default.
Once you get a judgement, you have to collect on it. The court
is not a collection agency. The judgement is usually good for
X-number of years, and can be renewed.
Many folks go ahead and pay up when the judgement starts
messing-up their credit; professionals don't care and seldom
satisfy a judgement.
........
As was noted earlier, you should not buy stuff that you are
not up to speed on. Things that look like bargains often
turn out NOT to be.
..........
If you have any friends who are police-officers, they could call the
cops in the guy's town and see if he is notorious. They might even
chat him up, as a favor to the other cops.
anyway, what we're talking about is the value of those 4 cards as a portion of a collection that i laid out 3K for (too much by a hair with these taken out, but a solid deal). those 4 cards have something in neighborhood of 1200 combined book. have to figure out what to sue for. that's why asking if anyone knew law specific to this type case. thanks.
why in God's name would you send him back your key evidence?
in deciding my offer to purchase.
YOU have to prove values. A notarized statement from the dealer
you spoke to might be admitted.
YOU have to prove the stuff you bought was fake. Since you have
no "rejection slips" from PSA, you need help here. The judge has
no clue what is fake/real; he needs to hear it from a neutral party.,
It would be best if you could pay a dealer to show-up in person so the
judge can chat with him. (Expert-Witness fees are recoverable in some
jurisdictions; I don't know about Small Claims in CA...easy to find out.)
YOU have to prove the guy sold you the stuff and represented that
it was authentic. If you can show that he is the MUCH greater bearer
of sophistication/knowledge, that would be a good thing.
YOU have to prove you paid for the stuff. Cancelled check, or a
bank statement showing you withdrew the cash will work.
YOU Do NOT have to prove the guy "intentionally" defrauded you.
(By the way: He Did) But, you have to show that you got hurt
because you relied on his representations; his negligence is not a
defense.
I usually try to get the phrase "Unfair Business Practices" into my SC
complaints; just in case the judge is inclined to allow treble-damages
to apply. (Unlikely based on what you have said here.)
The thrust of your case is that the pro-rata share of the purchase
price represented by the fakes is the amount of your damages.
Keep it simple, be polite, and hope the guy fails to show-up.
as for portion of total these cards represent - difficult, but certainly these were 4 or the 8-10 best.
<< <i>hey. thanks for that. i have been to small claims before, so know the drill. we're both in southern CA area. no doubt on the not up to speed thing, but it was an early freshman mistake. i'm a sophomore from this and a few other experiences.
anyway, what we're talking about is the value of those <b>4 cards as a portion of a collection that i laid out 3K for (too much by a hair with these taken out, but a solid deal)</b>. those 4 cards have something in neighborhood of 1200 combined book. have to figure out what to sue for. that's why asking if anyone knew law specific to this type case. thanks. >>
Think about how a judge/jury would perceive this: Here you're saying that the collection WITHOUT THE FAKES is worth a "hair" under 3K. You can sue for damages. In the eyes of a judge/jury, your damages are "a hair."
Or do you want to tell a judge: I thought I was paying 3K for something that was really worth $4200. Turns out, it was only worth $2950, so I want defendant to pay me $1250 (or something between 0 & 1250). If anything, you might be able to get the "hair" ($50).
I say chalk it up to experience and move on.
Not saying this works every time, but it is worth a try.
to go to small claims court? Also, get your hands on LEGIT commons of older cards and study them.
That is, get a magnifying glass and study how they are printed as related to the dot-matrix patterns
of fakes, etc. Get on the net and research the printing process.
Steve
j
RIP GURU