Baseball stats for modern players that make you go wow!

VitoCo1972

I love baseball-reference.com. Here are some great nuggets about modern players that I dug up in the last hour:

Todd Helton has the 9th highest OPS of ALL TIME in Major League baseball.(1.002) - ahead of guys like Mantle, Musial, A-Rod, Ott, Mize, Aaron
He also has the 35th best career batting average of all time - .328. But ask yourself this. Is he a Hall of Famer if he retires today? He has almost 2000 hits in 12 seasons. Over 300 HR.

Pedro Martinez has the 3rd best Won/Loss % of ALL TIME among MLB pitchers with over 100 decisions. (.6910). Only Al Spaulding and Spud Chandler are ahead of him

Mariano Rivera has a 2.30 career ERA - tied for 17th all time. No other active pitcher is even in the top 120 in career ERA. Amazing.

In 8 Seasons, Ichiro has 1728 hits for an average of 216/year. Ty Cobb (if you take away injuries) played 23 seasons and had 4189 hits - an average of 182 (190/year if you took a year off his divisor to account for getting older). If Ichiro played his entire career in the majors for 23 seasons, he would project out to: 4968 hits with that average...topping Pete Roses total by almost 700 hits.

One from the past: Hank Aaron is the All Time leader in total bases with 6856. The closest guy to Hank is Stan Musial at 6134 - that means Hank is 722 ahead meaning he circled the bases 180 more times in his career than the second place guy - and he only played one more season than Musial.

The three All Time career leaders in Strikeouts per 9 innings pitched are all active today - Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood and Pedro Martinez. They are all above 10K per 9IP. To contrast, Walter Johnson's K/9 is 5.339 and Cy Young ranks 836th all time with 3.430. If you're curious, Nolan Ryan is 4th with 9.548.

Cy Young won 511 games in his career. He threw 749 complete games! Greg Maddux has won 351 games so far and has thrown 109 complete games. Roger Clemens threw 118.

Nolan Ryan is 3rd all time in games lost - 292. Greg Maddux is 22nd - 222 - amazing game isn't it?

I finally came to the conclusion as to what the best baseball season is of all time. I used to debate between the following one, Gehrigs's 1930 season and Hack Wilson's 1931 Season, but look at Babe Ruth's 1921 Season:

152 Games (sat out twice)
540 at Bats
204 Hits for a .378 Average
59 Home Runs - 9th All Time
171 RBI's - 7th All Time
177 Runs Scored - 2nd All Time
17 Steals!!!!
44 Doubles
16 Triples!!!
145 Walks - 20th All Time
.512 On Base Percentage - (Over half the time he was up - he got on) - 13th All Time
.846 Slugging Percentage - (2nd All Time)
1.3586 OPS - 5th All Time

all of this in one season...and most people ahead of him on these single season all time marks played in the last 10 years. Astounding.

I love baseball statistics. Enjoy!

frankhardy

Of course, I would want to bring Albert Pujols into this discussion. Pujols is 5th all time in career OPS at 1.042.

(After I typed the above line, I looked at something else, and had to say, "wow".) Pujols is 4th all time in slugging %.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Lou Gehrig
4. Albert Pujols
5. Jimmie Foxx
6. Barry Bonds
7. Hank Greenburg
8. Manny Ramirez
9. Mark McGwire
10. Alex Rodriguez
11. Joe Dimaggio
12. Rogers Hornsby

That's some pretty impressive company.

Hoopster

The first stat list any aspiring fan should read is the all time ERA leader list. Why? Because it strongly highlights how the circumstances of an era play such a large role in determining the leaders of the all time lists of all stats.

It also shows the danger of comparing players with rate stats who have shorter careers(weren't good enough to play through a down phase in their old man years), to players who were good enough to play till their 40's(but saw their rates drop due to being good enough to play, but not as good as their primes).


Why did I stop the list after the top 84 of all time? Answer below.


1. Ed Walsh 1.820
2. Addie Joss+ 1.890 R
3. Jack Pfiester* 2.020 L
4. Joe Wood 2.030 R
5. Jim Devlin 2.050 R
6. Mordecai Brown+ 2.060 R
7. John Ward+ 2.100 R
8. Christy Mathewson+ 2.130 R
9. Al Spalding+ 2.140 R
10. Rube Waddell+* 2.160 L
11. Walter Johnson+ 2.170 R
12. Orval Overall 2.230 R
Jake Weimer* 2.230 L
14. Ed Reulbach 2.280 R
Babe Ruth+* 2.280 L
Will White 2.280 R
17. Jim Scott 2.300 R
18. Tommy Bond 2.310 R
Mariano Rivera (38) 2.310 R
20. Reb Russell* 2.330 L
21. Andy Coakley 2.350 R
Eddie Plank+* 2.350 L
23. Larry Corcoran 2.360 R
24. Eddie Cicotte 2.380 R
Ed Killian* 2.380 L
George McQuillan 2.380 R
27. Harry Coveleski* 2.390 L
Doc White* 2.390 L
29. George Bradley 2.420 R
Carl Lundgren 2.420 R
Nap Rucker* 2.420 L
32. Joe Benz 2.430 R
Terry Larkin 2.430 R
Jim McCormick 2.430 R
Jeff Tesreau 2.430 R
36. Chief Bender+ 2.460 R
37. Sam Leever 2.470 R
Lefty Leifield* 2.470 L
Hooks Wiltse* 2.470 L
40. Candy Cummings+ 2.490 R
Bob Ewing 2.490 R
Hippo Vaughn* 2.490 L
43. Ray Collins* 2.510 L
Cy Morgan 2.510 R
45. Hoyt Wilhelm+ 2.520 R
46. Lew Richie 2.540 R
47. Noodles Hahn* 2.550 L
Frank Owen 2.550 R
49. Pete Alexander+ 2.560 R
Slim Sallee* 2.560 L
51. Russ Ford 2.590 R
Deacon Phillippe 2.590 R
Frank Smith 2.590 R
54. Ed Siever* 2.600 L
55. Bob Rhoads 2.610 R
56. Fred Glade 2.620 R
Tim Keefe+ 2.620 R
58. Red Ames 2.630 R
Barney Pelty 2.630 R
Vic Willis+ 2.630 R
Rank Player (age) ERA Throws
Cy Young+ 2.630 R
62. Nick Altrock* 2.650 L
Claude Hendrix 2.650 R
64. Joe McGinnity+ 2.660 R
Dick Rudolph 2.660 R
Pete Schneider 2.660 R
Jack Taylor 2.660 R
68. Charlie Ferguson 2.670 R
Charley Radbourn+ 2.670 R
Carl Weilman* 2.670 L
71. Jack Chesbro+ 2.680 R
Cy Falkenberg 2.680 R
Johnny Lush* 2.680 L
74. Bill Donovan 2.690 R
Fred Toney 2.690 R
76. Larry Cheney 2.700 R
Vean Gregg* 2.700 L
78. Mickey Welch+ 2.710 R
79. Ned Garvin 2.720 R
80. Nick Cullop* 2.730 L
Rank Player (age) ERA Throws
Fred Goldsmith 2.730 R
Bob Wicker 2.730 R
83. Harry Howell 2.740 R
84. Howie Camnitz 2.750






Because way down at spot number 85 is where the first post WWII starting pitcher finally cracks the list. Yes, way down at 85 Whitey Ford joins the list of the all time 'best'. He finally gets to join the elite company of Harry Howell, George McQuilan, Claude Hendrix, and Joe Benz.

Koufax comes in at 88, and then Tom Seaver and Jim Palmer come in tied at 120th of all time.


The second stat list exemplifying this may probably be the ALL TIME SLG% leaders as one poster posted above. There you will find nearly all the players residing from the 90's/00's, and the 30's.



Studying the history of baseball is a great hobby. Comparintg players is a very fun hobby. It becomes even more fun when the 'whys' and 'hows' are understood to a high degree. Great hobby.

frankhardy

I take it that what you mean in a nutshell is that Pujols has not played long enough and the OPS and Slugging stats are deceiving. I agree with that and understand that those numbers can fall off as he gets older. However, it's still fun to watch. You make a great point.

VitoCo1972

Hoopster, your point is well taken, but reflects Mariano Rivera's amazing career even more I feel - and I'm a RED SOX fan!

bigfische

<< <i>Hoopster, your point is well taken, but reflects Mariano Rivera's amazing career even more I feel - and I'm a RED SOX fan! >>




Yeah, but throwing out a low era 1 inning at a time is much easier than doing it 7 innings at a time.

VitoCo1972

<< <i>

<< <i>Hoopster, your point is well taken, but reflects Mariano Rivera's amazing career even more I feel - and I'm a RED SOX fan! >>




Yeah, but throwing out a low era 1 inning at a time is much easier than doing it 7 innings at a time. >>



Then why are there not any other relievers from the past 40 years on that list?

Goot

<< <i>

Then why are there not any other relievers from the past 40 years on that list? >>




Most relievers don't reach 1000 IP like Rivera has. The great Trevor Hoffman has a 2.79 ERA, good enough to break the top 100 but only has 976 IP.


edit: I'm not trying to take anything away from Mariano because that stat just adds onto his dominance. However when I'm looking at a reliever's seasonal stats ERA is one of the last things I look at. There's such a small sample space that one bad outing can screw your ERA out of wack. I'd rather look at Save %, the amount of Holds the reliever has, K: BB ratio, or WHIP. Afterall, ERA was invented to gauge starting pitchers.

dallasactuary

<< <i>Then why are there not any other relievers from the past 40 years on that list? >>


There are - Hoyt Wilhelm played in the last 40 years. And then there are several who just missed the list (Sutter, Perranoski, etc.).

The larger point is that the single easiest way to have a great ERA is to have pitched before 1920. Fred Glade, among others on that list, was not even a good pitcher; although going 6-25 in a season does make him memorable. At least half that list is made up of pitchers who not only pitched before 1920, but also had very short careers - their careers were over or nearly over before they turned 30.

In distant second, the next easiest way to have a low ERA is to be a relief pitcher. Filter out all of the pre-1920 pitchers (and damn near ALL the pre-1920 pitchers are in the top 500), and what you'd notice is how many relief pitchers were left (damn near ALL the relief pitchers with 1,000+ innings).


Mariano Rivera is the best relief pitcher of all time. He will sail into the HOF, he probably even deserves to be in the HOF, but there are many, many pitchers who were much better than Rivera way behind him on the ERA list.

grote15

He will sail into the HOF, he probably even deserves to be in the HOF,

Dallas, I'm curious as to why you'd say Mariano Rivera "probably" deserves to be in the HOF. Considering his dominance, both in the regular season and especially in the postseason (winning four rings in the process), and the fact that he has pitched as an elite closer for more years than most closers would ever even aspire to stick around, much less dominate, why wouldn't he be fully deserving of admission to the HOF, and on the first ballot for that matter? Especially in this era when he's had to compete and contend with juiced sluggers in hitter friendly parks on top of it all? True, the ERA of relief pitchers may be skewed, but most pitchers who play major league baseball agree that those last three outs in a save situation are often the toughest to get, and more importantly, to keep getting, night in and night out, all season (and postseason) long.

JackWESQ

I'm not here to argue the legitimacy of these statistics. I'm here to respond to the original posters' request, e.g., baseball statistics for modern players that make me go wow, to wit.

1. 232 walks in a season by Barry Bonds. This season's leader, Adam Dunn, is on pace to walk 116 times.
2. 73 home runs in a season by Barry Bonds. This season's leader, Adam Dunn, is on pace to hit 47 home runs.
3. .609 on base percentage by Barry Bonds. This season's leader is Chipper Jones with a .466 percentage.
4. .863 slugging percentage by Barry Bonds. This season's leader is Lance Berkman with a .615 percentage.
5. 1.422 OPS by Barry Bonds. This season's leader is Chipper Jones with a 1.062 OPS.

In a vacuum, those numbers are truly ridiculous. And now, the non-alleged steroids stats from years gone past.

6. 36 triples by Owen Wilson. This season's leader, Jose Reyes, is on pace to hit 18 triples.
7. 192 runs scored by Billy Hamilton. This season's leader, Ian Kinsler, is on pace to score 135 runs.
8. Post 1900 batting average by Rogers Hornsby of .424, 'nuff said.
9. 16 shutouts by Pete Alexander. No pitcher has had 16 COMPLETE GAMES since Roger Clemens in 1987.
10. Post 1900 innings pitchers by Ed Walsh of 464 innings. No pitcher has pitched 300 innings since Phil Niekro in 1979.

/s/ JackWESQ

VitoCo1972

LOL, I purposefully left Bonds out of any mention here. No biggie though

dallasactuary

grote -

He's pitched barely 1,000 innings.
He was a starter for most of one season (his first) and was terrible.
His W/L record is about the same as his team's.
Even a mediocre relief pitcher would have been credited with the vast majority of saves that Rivera got, given the same opportunities.
His runs saved above average is HOF-level, but near the low end. Considering he is a relief pitcher, his suns saved is really among the lowest few who deserve to be in the HOF. (It dwarfs mediocrities like Rube Marquard and Jim Hunter, but there is no legitimate case to be made that they belong in the HOF.)

You asked why I said "probably" rather than definitely so I only listed the negatives, but bear in mind that despite all of those negatives I still think he probably belongs. He also has a lot of positives and I'm not ignoring those.


I start with the presumption that a good starting pitcher is more valuable than any relief pitcher could ever be, given careers of similar length. Yes, there is some extra value in getting the last three outs, but it simply doesn't approach the value of a pitcher that can consistently get the first 21 outs. Assuming that the reliever gets roughly the same number of "important" opportunites (no 3-run leads with only one inning or less to pitch) as the starter gets starts, then the 7-1 value advantage of the starter is insurmountable.


Also, consider that a reliever is measured by his saves and holds; the logic being that they are pitching in key situations where the outs are more important. How many holds and saves did a good starting pitcher used to accumulate before relief specialists took over? I mean, how often did a starting pitcher used to pitch in the same situations as a modern relief pitcher, needing to get three outs in the eighth and another three outs in the ninth to protect a lead? How does Blyleven's HOF case change if we realize that he got the exact same "important outs" as a reliever would have needed to get to accumulate about 200 saves and about 300 holds? In other words, why do we worship a relief pitcher who gets the same three outs that a starting pitcher used to get routinely before relief pitchers came along?

If there is extra value in getting the last three outs of a game then I submit that Bert Blyleven is as good as you think he is PLUS as good as a relief pitcher with 200 saves and 300 holds. Go back another generation or two, and the value of pitchers like Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, etc. absolutely soars beyond the value we normally ascribe to them. Which is to say, I agree that there is extra value in getting the tough outs; but we all need to remember when a starter gets those outs it is worth just as much extra as when a reliever gets them.

jaxxr

Stats are the lifeblood of baseball,

Unlike other major team sports, baseball, since roughly 1901, inception of 2 major leagues, has remained fairly constant in rules, and lends itself to statistical measurement at any and all positions, so you actually may compare players from different time eras. There were changes in life style, strategy, equipment used, astro turf, the DH and such, so all comparisons are probably a little subjective. Nevertheless, they are interesting, and can provide great entertainment and some heated discussions.

A stat which attempts to show how good a pitcher was, in relation to others of his own time era, s "ERA +", regardess of when he pitched, how easy or hard it was to get hitters out, ERA + will show how much a hurler bettered the others from his day.
To get it even a little more accurate, it can be adusted, for the ballparks pitched in, and the specific teams faced. That would be called Adjusted ERA +.

Career Adjusted ERA +;
1 M. Rivera, 2 P. Martinez, 3 Lefty Grove, 4 W Johnson, 5 Ed Walsh, 5 D Quisenberry, 5 H Wilhelm, 5 Smokey Joe Wood, 9 Brandon Webb, 10 R Clemens 11 Addie Joss, among others.

Actual Raw ERA , a career;
1 Ed Walsh, 2 Addie Joss, 3 J Phiester, 4 Smokey Joe Wood, TF Brown, 6 C Mathewson, 7 Rube Waddell, 8 W Johnson, 9 Orval Overall, 9 Jake Weimer. ( Only post 1901 careers used )

The two lists are a bit different, some all time aces appear on both. Hard to compare closers and starters, and there actually were no closers until about WW2. Active hurlers may still drop or increase their performances, perhaps best to wait some, on them.

grote15

grote -

He's pitched barely 1,000 innings.
He was a starter for most of one season (his first) and was terrible.
His W/L record is about the same as his team's.

How many closers have pitched 1,000 innings in a career during which they did not also start? Of course, that's a virtual impossibility, considering the role of the closer and the number of innings even the busiest closer will accumulate during the course of a season. Secondly, the won-loss record of a closer is a terrible indicator of a closer's effectiveness, as his chances to obtain a "win" are very limited, since his job when coming into the game is to get the save, not the win. The majority of times a closer gets a decision, it is going to be a loss. A closer's W-L record is even more misleading an indicator of that pitcher's ability or effectiveness than it is for a starter's. By this measure, I guess you think Livan Hernandez should still be a starter in Minnesota. Lastly, his very first season as a starter is truly a meaningless measure of Rivera's stature as a premier closer for the last dozen years.

I can understand if you personally believe that closers are not worthy of HOF induction because of your personal bias, but objectively speaking, there is no way that Mariano Rivera doesn't serve to be a first ballot HOFer for what he's done throughout his career.

dallasactuary

baseball-

As I said, I was defending my "probably" by listing only the negatives that I saw. You have listed some of the positives that, on balance, lead me to believe that Rivera does belong in the HOF. And my bar for relievers getting into the HOF is higher than yours - I think Hoyt Wilhelm is the only one so far who has cleared it.


jaxxr-

Whatever interest there is in looking at the two lists side-by-side doesn't change the fact that there is no value in looking at the raw ERA list if we have the adjusted ERA+ list. 90%+ of a pitcher's value is captured by his adjusted ERA+ and the number of innings he pitched. Mark Fidrych and Jim Palmer have the same adjusted ERA+; one is a HOFer and the other is the answer to a trivia question. Likewise, many of the pitchers in the top 100 of the raw ERA list are just answers to trivia questions; many aren't even that.


This is just my opinion, but I am very skeptical when any pitcher with fewer than 3,000 innnings makes the HOF - they need to have been truly amazing for their short careers. There are a few pitchers who clear that bar - Ed Walsh, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Sandy Koufax come to mind - but I will never be convinced that Bruce Sutter or Goose Gossage even came close.

dallasactuary

baseball-

I can't argue that Rivera is a product of his times; he can only pitch when his manager tells him to pitch, and managers only tell closers to pitch in very narrow situations. Interestingly, if closers pitched when they were in the best position to help their teams - down by one or tied in the 8th or 9th replacing 2 and 3 run leads with only one or two outs to go - then not only would they be more valuable but they'd also have stats that looked more Hall-worthy. But that can't entirely be held against the closers. But the simple fact is that closers are not nearly as valuable as the casual fan believes they are; they just don't pitch enough to be.

And there has to be a line somewhere; being the best at something that is not particularly important does not qualify a player for the HOF. Who was the best pinch hitter in history? It's the offensive equivalent of a closer, but who ever talks about it, let alone advocates Manny Mota or Gates Brown for the HOF? No, when people look for HOF candidates they look at entire careers and how a player did in hundreds of pinch hitting plate appearances is lost in his thousands of total at bats. What if in the future teams start employing offensive "closers", players who hit only in key situations? Will such a player with great looking stats for 100-150 at bats a season be a HOFer?

Of course, the very idea is silly because if a player hits that well, then he plays every day just as pitchers who pitch at a HOF level pitch every 4th day. Wilhelm is the only exception to my mind, and probably Rivera.


grote -

I can't argue with your points, either. I was just pointing out that in the games where Rivera is in a situation to get a decision - admittedly a small fraction of his total appearances - he doesn't do any better than anyone else on his team. It's a weakness in his HOF claim, although we can agree not to give it too much weight. If his W/L was 100-10 you can be sure that it would be touted as further evidence that he does belong in the HOF.

jaxxr

"Who was the best pinch hitter in history? It's the offensive equivalent of a closer"

I would disagree with that extreme a statement.
Virtually no one is ever trained or drafted as a pinch hitter. The very poor defenders, if they have enough batting talent, will become DHs.
As baseball has evolved, in the last 40 or so years, the "closer" has become an actual need for evey single major league team. They are scouted for, and groomed to be a closer. The closer will work in 40 to 50 games, many times 1 or 2 innings. A pinch hitter, who is not that good a batter to get a DH position, and obviously not that good an all around player to start, will come in, a few games, for 1/3 of an inning.

I do agree the "bar" should be higher than that of a starting pitcher, though they may get into a similar amount of games, they will throw more innings and all baseball games require a starting pitcher, many dont need a closer.
Hoyt Wilhelm has two ERA titles, regardless of any time era, an impressive feat for a hurler, one as a reliever / closer, and one as a starter as well. His credentials are fine for the HOF.
Rivera, may likely continue to shine, and will probably be good enough and or popular enough for the HOF.