Options
The FEV was the original low relief Ike design. . .
ModernDollarNut
Posts: 886
I have the honor of giving the 4 PM Sundman-Littleton lecture at Baltimore on Thursday.
Sorry for this self-promoting thread but I wanted to let all Ike fans, and particularly those interested in the FEV (1971-D "Friendly Eagle Variety") know that a lecture which started out as homage to Gasparro getting some ferrocity back on his low relief Eagle design led me straight to the conclusion that the FEV was the original low relief Ike design, that the FEV went hand in hand with the "Friendly Eagle" of the high relief design.
If I'm correct, this adds considerable gravitas to the FEV - PCGS, are you listening???
4 PM Thursday, the talk is 30 minutes, 18 really cool transparencies and a challenging new take on the sequence of Ike designs.
If you actually have a life with better things to do, I'm told the talk will be video-taped and available for a while on the ANA web site. But then you'd miss this historic segment of the Ike Group's coming out party.
And don't forget the Friday 1 PM "New Ikes"Workshop. . . we are pulling out the stops, opening up with everything we know and are working on, with copious handouts (though we'll have to reclaim the copies of articles not yet published).
Rob
Sorry for this self-promoting thread but I wanted to let all Ike fans, and particularly those interested in the FEV (1971-D "Friendly Eagle Variety") know that a lecture which started out as homage to Gasparro getting some ferrocity back on his low relief Eagle design led me straight to the conclusion that the FEV was the original low relief Ike design, that the FEV went hand in hand with the "Friendly Eagle" of the high relief design.
If I'm correct, this adds considerable gravitas to the FEV - PCGS, are you listening???
4 PM Thursday, the talk is 30 minutes, 18 really cool transparencies and a challenging new take on the sequence of Ike designs.
If you actually have a life with better things to do, I'm told the talk will be video-taped and available for a while on the ANA web site. But then you'd miss this historic segment of the Ike Group's coming out party.
And don't forget the Friday 1 PM "New Ikes"Workshop. . . we are pulling out the stops, opening up with everything we know and are working on, with copious handouts (though we'll have to reclaim the copies of articles not yet published).
Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
0
Comments
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Good Luck reclaiming my copy of articles if I get my hands on one on Friday!
Looks like you're gonna need some muscle at the exit door Rob!
Unpublished article, rare IKEs for viewing...................ya think you could get TooTawl for a couple of hours?
The name is LEE!
On the other hand, John, you might be a handful, LOL!
I have no real problem with copies of articles being discretely removed by anyone on this board, just don't want them to go out the door wholesale in case we get more attendees than the Ike nuts signed up so far.
We'll play it by ear, but realize I'll have a 'gator hunter/snake handler at my right side, a fierce heavyweight who slings metal around for a living on my left and Lee the attack dog at the ready. . . Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
JMHO, but the track you've taken trying to bully PCGS into this at their own sight is shameful and embarrassing.
<< <i>Being TooTawl could be a disadvantage against short people with briefcases...
OK....you made me laugh outloud to myself!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>JMHO, but the track you've taken trying to bully PCGS into this at their own sight is shameful and embarrassing. >>
You want embararrassing and shameful?
How about the inclusion of a minor RPM (1971-S) in the IKE Major Variety Set. Now that's embarrassing and shameful!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>JMHO, but the track you've taken trying to bully PCGS into this at their own sight is shameful and embarrassing. >>
Gee Keets,,,, why don't you tell us how YOU really feel?
I don't agree with your statement and feel we have all been respectful in our efforts and requests. Noone respects PCGS more than the members of "The IKE Group"
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>i must admit, i hope PCGS recognizes this Variety just so the overkill stops. i swear i haven't seen a less graceful appraoch to getting a Variety recognized.......................ever. you guys should slow down and take a few deep breaths while you contemplate the difference between a request and a demand.
JMHO, but the track you've taken trying to bully PCGS into this at their own sight is shameful and embarrassing. >>
I am neither ashamed nor embarrased and will continue to bring this up with PCGS for the simple reason that it is a major variety which deserves recognition by the major TPG's. Somebody has to start the attribution or else the coin will go back into hiding for another 7 years since newbies to the hobby won't have anything to tell them that it even exists.
I've learned that the coin business is a very strange business in that it takes a lot to get a legitimate variety recognized! It's not a simple matter or mearly reporting it and validating that it is a new variety as there is a lot of legwork just to get people involved! Look how long it took the Type 1 and Type 2 Eisenhowers to get recognized and these have been known about since mid-1972 yet PCGS didn't start attributing them as Varieties until 1998? I have no idea when NGC picked them up but unattributed coins still exist out there if you know what to look for.
I can fully understand the delay in recognition back then as the Internet and information availability was not in full swing just yet. Overnight Express Mail was a new concept so attribution could literally take months to get a coin passed around to all the "experts" who would validate that the coin was in fact a die variety and not a die state.
This is totally different today where validation from "recognized" authorities in die varieties are mere micro seconds away! Just look at the "new" modern varieties that take only a couple of weeks to get "attributed". Look how long it took for the 2008 Reverse of 2007 SAE recognized?
This sight is, after all, for the purpose of sharing information about coins and David Hall himself came on here asking whether of not PCGS should recognize one of the "new" modern varieties. How much different is that than conducting a user poll?
Embarrassed? Not a chance! I would consider it more along the lines of persistent and utilizing tools that are currently available.
The name is LEE!
Just about a year ago, I took a varieties 1, 2 3 and a FEV to one of the local coin clubs. In general, the members aren't familiar with them and the majority told me I had die states not varieties. We have a long way to go with the average collector.
<< <i><<I can fully understand the delay in recognition back then as the Internet and information availability was not in full swing just yet. Overnight Express Mail was a new concept so attribution could literally take months to get a coin passed around to all the "experts" who would validate that the coin was in fact a die variety and not a die state. >>
Just about a year ago, I took a varieties 1, 2 3 and a FEV to one of the local coin clubs. In general, the members aren't familiar with them and the majority told me I had die states not varieties. We have a long way to go with the average collector. >>
I smell a Coin Club presentation in your future Herb!
The name is LEE!
I had the same problem with ANACS; it took 3 emails to John Roberts and a LOT of "hems & haws" to get them to agree to attribute.... They came around, PCGS will eventually get around to it too.
I think I am more fascinated by the touchup that parallels v. 1 very closely but is still not quite the same. For instance the tail feathers separations are highlighted by added relief lines. Yet each of them are positioned slightly differently from the other variety. The last of these lines to the viewer's right is not there on the FEV.
i just think you guys are going overboard with your campaign. tidbits like "PCGS has to grow a pair" berating Poll respondents because they don't agree with you or don't care is just silly. also, comparing the way the three 1972 Types were recognized is a good point----------it was done rather quietly, off the boards and with patience. i was around here then and there was no clamoring or attempts to get PCGS to attribute the varieties, at least none i recall. while most who cared knew an effort was underway(mainly by Tad aka Supercoin) it was done in a Gentlemanly fashion.
Lee also has a point that the times are a bit different now. Bushmaster is right that those of us with a passion for Ikes get bent when we see a trivial Ike variety recognized simply because it got into the CPG (to say nothing about the black-box situation with Ike DD's). And Lee, again, noting the rapidity with which brand new and sometimes vapid and not-understood current issue varieties get recognized. Then there is the "First Strike" nonesense. Quite a contrast with a richly endowed quite different naked-eye Design Variety FEV that is teaching us so much about the series.
As a bit of a stubborn dutchman I have been known to lose my cool on occasion but I'm such a lovable cuss I suspect Ron and others don't hold it against me, LOL. Especially since every one of them know by now that the Ike Group and its supporters are right about the FEV deserving attribution.
Look, PCGS could easily decide to make an exception for the FEV. They are choosing not to do so. If a family member acted with such willful stubborness I'd eventually take their head off, too. It's called tough love.
So Gary is spot on that our frustration is in part fueled by our strong dedication to PCGS. I have yet to contact NGC . . .
Keets, I do get your point that if our Group had approached PCGS quietly and behind the scenes before spouting off in public we might have seen different results. The problem is we did try that route. Of course, at that point we were unknown, purposefully, and had just begun to publish. Then I thought our "FEP" article in NUMISMATIST would do the trick as up to that point publication of a new variety in a major journal was a key factor in attribution. But no, the new criterion was publication in CPG.
(By the way, the FEV may just pop up in the next CPG. I know it's going to be in one of the other major similar publications. Then you'll be spared our use of this forum to make our case: of course there will be many Ike issues (pun intended) to take up in the months and years ahead as we have just begun to rock the Ike boat.
If you're in Baltimore on Thursday, why not drag your ugly butt to the Sundman lecture at 4 and get a first-hand feel for our work and why we are so passionate about the FEV? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
well, taken out of context as these were, i suspect your point is the our host part and some suspected hidden agenda or goal on my part. maybe you think i wanted to embarrass someone?? maybe you think i wanted to show what a hot-shot grader of Jefferson Nickels i am?? maybe you think i want to show that i know more about the series and how to grade it than anybody else??
maybe you're wrong on all counts??? maybe there's another goal you think i may have?? i can't say for sure 'cause i'm not a mind reader. if you read the thread and take it for what it is you'd probably find your answer. others did. the reason i didn't choose another route is because i have no goal or agenda, unless sharing information counts.
<< <i>Rob, Lee, et al.......................
i just think you guys are going overboard with your campaign. tidbits like "PCGS has to grow a pair" berating Poll respondents because they don't agree with you or don't care is just silly. also, comparing the way the three 1972 Types were recognized is a good point----------it was done rather quietly, off the boards and with patience. i was around here then and there was no clamoring or attempts to get PCGS to attribute the varieties, at least none i recall. while most who cared knew an effort was underway(mainly by Tad aka Supercoin) it was done in a Gentlemanly fashion. >>
Al, I have been petitioning PCGS since August of 2006 but then you wouldn't really know about this since I failed to CC you on my emails. However I did notify the IKE group so they are all well aware of the efforts that have been made with regard to this variety.
The name is LEE!
You guys rock on with your bad self.
See you in Baltimore at the lecture
Cliff
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
if you have met with resistance in that way, why would coming here to continue the plea seem like a good thing?? i would think HRH and everyone that matters at PCGS would be a bit perturbed by something like that. they might even see it as "bagging" on PCGS which isn't a good thing.
<< <i>JMHO, Lee, but that should be the route followed along with having articles published as you have in Numismatist. i would think a continued dialogue at shows or wherever you can borrow some of PCGS management's time to discuss progress on your end and ask questions about progress on their end would be perhaps slower than you'd like, but the most successful.
if you have met with resistance in that way, why would coming here to continue the plea seem like a good thing?? i would think HRH and everyone that matters at PCGS would be a bit perturbed by something like that. they might even see it as "bagging" on PCGS which isn't a good thing. >>
The post(s) were not intended as pleas to PCGS as much as informative posts for the forum readers, whether active or not, in an attempt to open the eyes of the everyday coin collectors. Seeing as how a unique variety can still be found for nearly face value I would think would inspire a lot of folks to pay attention to the IKEs.
PCGS and NGC do not always respond to common logic which dictates that the FEV, a published and recognized variety, should be an "attributable variety" as much as they cater to popular public opinion as the Speared Bison, Wisconsin Extra Leaves, Presidential Dollar whatevers and 2008 Reverse of 2007 attributions clearly demonstrate!
The name is LEE!
"then you'd miss this historic segment of the Ike Group's coming out party."
Is there something I should know?
The name is LEE!
I wish I could be there but cannot, good luck with your lecture, and hope you get a great turnout.
Robert.
About 20 people attended (compared to an average of 5) including the editor of Numismatist and a well known Coin World variety columnist and Bill Fivaz who looks to be in robust good health (Bill, I have your laser-pointer pen).
The workshop was a blast with heavy hitters from ANACS and Roger Burdette among others but no appearance by a PCGS rep.
I'll be writing up the workshop for publication.
Got to summarize Thursday's lecture and go over the FEV in some detail.
And now the 1972-S "Shadow Ike" is out of the bag along with Gasparro's planted flag on the reverse of all high relief Ikes and his two Apollo space craft, one on the Shadow Ike, one on the FEV, both at 10:00.
Nobody at the workshop fainted, turned red or walked out when I said the Ike Group was seriously considering a drastically revised Ike DD catalog system with two tiers, the first for strong DD's visible to an intermediate collector with a 10X loupe and the second for all the minor, similar and research DD's. The idea is TPG's would then have a solid source of attributable Ike DD's in contrast to today's black-box attribution system with its heavy bias toward attributing the same DD's (often the same master DD) as different thanks to minor variations from additional down-line doubling, different die state, die re-treatments, compounding shelf doubling and so on. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>BigMarty and Lee, the Sundman lecture on Thursday went well: the ANA videographer said it was the best ANA lecture he had ever taped (don't know if he knows coins or just liked my easy-to hear voice and nifty transparencies.
About 20 people attended (compared to an average of 5) including the editor of Numismatist and a well known Coin World variety columnist and Bill Fivaz who looks to be in robust good health (Bill, I have your laser-pointer pen).
The workshop was a blast with heavy hitters from ANACS and Roger Burdette among others but no appearance by a PCGS rep.
I'll be writing up the workshop for publication.
Got to summarize Thursday's lecture and go over the FEV in some detail.
And now the 1972-S "Shadow Ike" is out of the bag along with Gasparro's planted flag on the reverse of all high relief Ikes and his two Apollo space craft, one on the Shadow Ike, one on the FEV, both at 10:00.
Nobody at the workshop fainted, turned red or walked out when I said the Ike Group was seriously considering a drastically revised Ike DD catalog system with two tiers, the first for strong DD's visible to an intermediate collector with a 10X loupe and the second for all the minor, similar and research DD's. The idea is TPG's would then have a solid source of attributable Ike DD's in contrast to today's black-box attribution system with its heavy bias toward attributing the same DD's (often the same master DD) as different thanks to minor variations from additional down-line doubling, different die state, die re-treatments, compounding shelf doubling and so on. Rob >>
Wish I was there...
What's the 'Shadow Ike'?
It is those 1972-S BS SIlver Ikes with a shallow crescent close to the Earth that wraps around from about 10:00 at its southern end to 11:30 at its northern end.
About 1/3 '72 BS Silvers have it.
It's also present on both 1972 TYPE-2 Philly Ikes, the March minting (80% have a die crack in "STATES") and the July minting (half show die clash with a small "Talon Tip"" on the obverse and a vague Jaw Line midst die abrasions on the reverse to the East and South of the Earth).
Until very recently we thought the Shadow Ike was a different RDV from the "common" '72 BS Silver reverse, but now it seems more likely that the Shadow Ike is the only RDV and the non-Shadow version is due to die re-treatments to maintain frosting. Much more on this shortly.
Hey! Are Ikes too good to be true or what!! Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE