I would LOVE for my boyhood idol (and relatively local star; he's from nearby Evansville, IN) Don Mattingly to go into the HOF. I think he literally came up one year short. That is, if it weren't for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around one more year, he would have his championship and he would've made it probably no later than second or third ballot. Am I wrong?
<< <i>I would LOVE for my boyhood idol (and relatively local star; he's from nearby Evansville, IN) Don Mattingly to go into the HOF. I think he literally came up one year short. That is, if it weren't for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around one more year, he would have his championship and he would've made it probably no later than second or third ballot. Am I wrong? >>
Yes.
He simply wasn't an elite player long enough. The back injury that robbed him of his power also killed his HOF chances.
I knew Steve, Dallas A., from another message board group as well., actually gave him a colorful pic of Richie Allen, of which he told me he used as a background or screensaver.
About a year ago, I believe, his oldest child entered college and he was quite involved/concerned, perhaps his available free time is now directed elsewhere. Intelligent, well-spoken, and polite posters are always missed.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
I can guaran-freaking-tee you that Dallas did a little jig after Blyleven got voted in.
Perhaps even shedded a tear or two...
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>I would LOVE for my boyhood idol (and relatively local star; he's from nearby Evansville, IN) Don Mattingly to go into the HOF. I think he literally came up one year short. That is, if it weren't for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around one more year, he would have his championship and he would've made it probably no later than second or third ballot. Am I wrong? >>
Yes.
He simply wasn't an elite player long enough. The back injury that robbed him of his power also killed his HOF chances.
Tabe >>
I will say I was VERY surprised when Kirby Puckett got in on the first ballot; even though his stats are similar to Don's. Though Kirby does have those two shiny rings... Ryne Sandberg's stats are even more similar still to Don's (including matching Don's nine gold gloves and MVP), yet he's in and Don is not.
The argument about Puckett and Sandberg over Mattingly is because the voters considered first base a power position. His stats needed to eclipse those of Puckett and Sandberg. When you use sabermetrics, Mattingly's peak was actually more potent. Puckett definitely got sympathy points for his sudden eye ailment. Mattingly does not get the same because his degenerative ailment was spread over half his career? His Back problems really started in 1987. He was put on the DL. That 1987 season was still HOF caliber, but not his full potential. He finished 6th in OPS+ in 1987 with that bad back. Its effects were seen more in 1988, although it was not a bad season either. Considering how many athletes end their careers with what Mattingly had, he continued to play excellent defense and was above average in hitting even in the latter part of his career (1990 was DL and surgery, 1995 season was average, but above average post-season).
I don't really want to use players in the HOF already to make justifications for Mattingly's case now, but its OK to bring them up. The HOF standards state that character and sportsmanship are legit criteria to use, so that should work in his favor now that the steroid era has been exposed.
I have not studied Mazeroski enough, but it sounds like he was a stellar glove at shortstop. That is true value to the team. Jim Kaat has nothing that really jumps out. The 16 gold gloves, like I said before, are mere window dressing ornaments. Defense is already reflected in ERA, so no need to recognize defense separately like you would a position player's.
Bert Blyleven deserves the HOF. Few have 12 or more seasons in ERA+ ranked in the top 10. He really did distinguish himself in his career. He was the best for one season too. Sabermetrics really exposed him of the outstanding pitcher he was. I was even pleasantly surprised. I believe Mike Mussina should get in for similar reasons. He had a shorter career, but still notched 11 seasons where he was in the top 10 of ERA+. Forget 20 win seasons or Cy Young Awards, the real value in a pitcher is the ERA+.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>I will say I was VERY surprised when Kirby Puckett got in on the first ballot; even though his stats are similar to Don's. Though Kirby does have those two shiny rings... Ryne Sandberg's stats are even more similar still to Don's (including matching Don's nine gold gloves and MVP), yet he's in and Don is not. >>
Sandberg's in because 2B is a more defensive-oriented position. 1B is a pretty easy position defensively (relatively) so guys that play there are expected to produce power numbers. 2B, on the other hand, is very challenging, so guys there aren't expected to produce as much. That's why, with similar numbers, Sandberg is an elite 2B and Mattingly isn't an elite 1B.
Sandberg and Mattingly had similar stats except for those pesky +334 SBs on Ryno's side. I think you're forgetting, or possibly unaware, just how great Ryno was at a time when his top peers in the NL were Tom Herr and Johnny Ray. Sandberg trailed R.Alomar by fewer than 2 wins in career WAR, and was actually ahead of Alomar in career Win Shares by a very small margin 67.99 to 67.42. I don't recall any outrage from anyone over Ryno not getting in on the first ballot....even in Chicago. I don't think Mattingly is that far ahead of Olerud to be honest. Very similar career OPS+ (128 to 127). Olerud blew him away in career OBP by 40 points. WAR2 suggests that they are nearly identical in averaging 1B - 32.8 to 32.2 giving Mattingly a slight edge.
Comments
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
<< <i>I would LOVE for my boyhood idol (and relatively local star; he's from nearby Evansville, IN) Don Mattingly to go into the HOF. I think he literally came up one year short. That is, if it weren't for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around one more year, he would have his championship and he would've made it probably no later than second or third ballot. Am I wrong? >>
Yes.
He simply wasn't an elite player long enough. The back injury that robbed him of his power also killed his HOF chances.
Tabe
actually gave him a colorful pic of Richie Allen, of which he told me he used as a background or screensaver.
About a year ago, I believe, his oldest child entered college and he was quite involved/concerned, perhaps his available free time is now directed elsewhere. Intelligent, well-spoken, and polite posters are always missed.
Perhaps even shedded a tear or two...
I've seen him in the same forum that Vargha now goes too.
More political in nature.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would LOVE for my boyhood idol (and relatively local star; he's from nearby Evansville, IN) Don Mattingly to go into the HOF. I think he literally came up one year short. That is, if it weren't for the 1994 strike or if he had stuck around one more year, he would have his championship and he would've made it probably no later than second or third ballot. Am I wrong? >>
Yes.
He simply wasn't an elite player long enough. The back injury that robbed him of his power also killed his HOF chances.
Tabe >>
I will say I was VERY surprised when Kirby Puckett got in on the first ballot; even though his stats are similar to Don's. Though Kirby does have those two shiny rings... Ryne Sandberg's stats are even more similar still to Don's (including matching Don's nine gold gloves and MVP), yet he's in and Don is not.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
The argument about Puckett and Sandberg over Mattingly is because the voters considered first base a power position. His stats needed to eclipse those of Puckett and Sandberg. When you use sabermetrics, Mattingly's peak was actually more potent. Puckett definitely got sympathy points for his sudden eye ailment. Mattingly does not get the same because his degenerative ailment was spread over half his career? His Back problems really started in 1987. He was put on the DL. That 1987 season was still HOF caliber, but not his full potential. He finished 6th in OPS+ in 1987 with that bad back. Its effects were seen more in 1988, although it was not a bad season either. Considering how many athletes end their careers with what Mattingly had, he continued to play excellent defense and was above average in hitting even in the latter part of his career (1990 was DL and surgery, 1995 season was average, but above average post-season).
I don't really want to use players in the HOF already to make justifications for Mattingly's case now, but its OK to bring them up. The HOF standards state that character and sportsmanship are legit criteria to use, so that should work in his favor now that the steroid era has been exposed.
I have not studied Mazeroski enough, but it sounds like he was a stellar glove at shortstop. That is true value to the team. Jim Kaat has nothing that really jumps out. The 16 gold gloves, like I said before, are mere window dressing ornaments. Defense is already reflected in ERA, so no need to recognize defense separately like you would a position player's.
Bert Blyleven deserves the HOF. Few have 12 or more seasons in ERA+ ranked in the top 10. He really did distinguish himself in his career. He was the best for one season too. Sabermetrics really exposed him of the outstanding pitcher he was. I was even pleasantly surprised. I believe Mike Mussina should get in for similar reasons. He had a shorter career, but still notched 11 seasons where he was in the top 10 of ERA+. Forget 20 win seasons or Cy Young Awards, the real value in a pitcher is the ERA+.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i><<Intelligent, well-spoken, and polite posters are always missed.>>
There were others??? >>
LOL
You do gotta love this place. I may be under my third name...but about eight years on here, and I am always drawn back, LOL.
I am sure Dallas did a jig for Blyleven...probably makes up for Rice
<< <i>I will say I was VERY surprised when Kirby Puckett got in on the first ballot; even though his stats are similar to Don's. Though Kirby does have those two shiny rings... Ryne Sandberg's stats are even more similar still to Don's (including matching Don's nine gold gloves and MVP), yet he's in and Don is not. >>
Sandberg's in because 2B is a more defensive-oriented position. 1B is a pretty easy position defensively (relatively) so guys that play there are expected to produce power numbers. 2B, on the other hand, is very challenging, so guys there aren't expected to produce as much. That's why, with similar numbers, Sandberg is an elite 2B and Mattingly isn't an elite 1B.
Tabe
Did you ever pay the kid his $2?