New to PSA, interested in learning more about PSA graded Magic
Gishra
Posts: 7
Well, for almost as long as I can remember I've been interested in collecting things... coins, sports cards, you name it. In the last twelve years ago I've been most interested in collecting Magic cards... usually I'd buy from stores, but often I would find the condition of those cards to be below what I would hope for. So now I'm try to learn more about PSA and BGS grading. Specifically, people's experiences in the uniformity of the grading of these services, and what exactly in their experiences seems to weigh most in getting a certain grade.
What really brought up my question was a recent purchase of a PSA 9 Mox Sapphire and a PSA 9 Mox Emerald, both from Unlimited. The Sapphire is a near flawless card and worth every penny I paid, but I feel a little shifted on the Emerald, since at $450 I definitely paid a premium for the card in the hopes of getting a copy in exceptional condition, and while it is a nice copy, it seems in my own novice opinion to not be quite what I'd expect from a 9. For instance, the card has some slight signs of play, like minor "dirtying" of the top front border (it's minor enough that if it weren't in the PSA case I'd try to pick it off with my fingernail), more small nicks in the edges than in the dirt-less Sapphire and equally graded Jet I also own, and it also has a back right edge that has more than slight whitening. I really wish I could take a picture to get opinions on whether this is something you'd expect to see as a 9, but I'll settle for posting a picture of a card that I think is just about in the same condition (I went sifting through ebay listings to find this):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mox-Ruby-06-Unlimited-Power9-P9-MtG-Magic-Rare-PIX_W0QQitemZ140210992631QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
If anything this one might be a little bit better, since there is no dirtying that I can see on the white border of this card. The top back edge of this Ruby is comparable to the back right edge of my Emerald, and the back of the card of this shows about the same number of tiny dings that the Emerald does. Like the Emerald, the corners are really good and the card surface is free of any noticeable scratches. Basically just add three small black specks to the white border on the front and you have the Emerald. Do you think this Ruby would be a PSA 9?
Well, not much I can do if the Emerald should be a 7 or 8 instead, except feel dumb for overpaying for it, especially when an Alpha BGS 9 one showed up on ebay a week later and went for only a hundred dollars more. (my own feeling for the Emerald would be somewhere between 7-8... I bought a dozen PSA 8 beta commons to get a feel for PSA grading, and in my own opinion I think the condition of all of those cards is better, in fact that cards that nice would only be 8s is what made me want to splurge on high profile cards at 9... but those 8s may be on the very high end of 8, since I assume people only bother sending in commons if they think they're good enough to get at least a 9). On the other hand, if you guys think a card like that could legitimately squeak into 9, then I'd obviously feel better about my purchase. But knowing what sort of flaws a 9 card can possess before dropping down a grade will be important for my future purchases, whether I should, despite having a picture of the card in its graded case, ask for detailed front and back scans before buying, or if I should just suck it up and pay the huge difference between 9s and 10s. Or even if I should try to locate ungraded copies that might get high grades instead of buying them already graded (although seeing near-pristine copies not in a graded case makes me really worry about counterfeits). Well, I'd be interested in hearing from people with a lot more experience with PSA grading than I have. Thanks, and I hope to become a regular around here as I get more knowledgable about the wonderful world of grading!
What really brought up my question was a recent purchase of a PSA 9 Mox Sapphire and a PSA 9 Mox Emerald, both from Unlimited. The Sapphire is a near flawless card and worth every penny I paid, but I feel a little shifted on the Emerald, since at $450 I definitely paid a premium for the card in the hopes of getting a copy in exceptional condition, and while it is a nice copy, it seems in my own novice opinion to not be quite what I'd expect from a 9. For instance, the card has some slight signs of play, like minor "dirtying" of the top front border (it's minor enough that if it weren't in the PSA case I'd try to pick it off with my fingernail), more small nicks in the edges than in the dirt-less Sapphire and equally graded Jet I also own, and it also has a back right edge that has more than slight whitening. I really wish I could take a picture to get opinions on whether this is something you'd expect to see as a 9, but I'll settle for posting a picture of a card that I think is just about in the same condition (I went sifting through ebay listings to find this):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mox-Ruby-06-Unlimited-Power9-P9-MtG-Magic-Rare-PIX_W0QQitemZ140210992631QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
If anything this one might be a little bit better, since there is no dirtying that I can see on the white border of this card. The top back edge of this Ruby is comparable to the back right edge of my Emerald, and the back of the card of this shows about the same number of tiny dings that the Emerald does. Like the Emerald, the corners are really good and the card surface is free of any noticeable scratches. Basically just add three small black specks to the white border on the front and you have the Emerald. Do you think this Ruby would be a PSA 9?
Well, not much I can do if the Emerald should be a 7 or 8 instead, except feel dumb for overpaying for it, especially when an Alpha BGS 9 one showed up on ebay a week later and went for only a hundred dollars more. (my own feeling for the Emerald would be somewhere between 7-8... I bought a dozen PSA 8 beta commons to get a feel for PSA grading, and in my own opinion I think the condition of all of those cards is better, in fact that cards that nice would only be 8s is what made me want to splurge on high profile cards at 9... but those 8s may be on the very high end of 8, since I assume people only bother sending in commons if they think they're good enough to get at least a 9). On the other hand, if you guys think a card like that could legitimately squeak into 9, then I'd obviously feel better about my purchase. But knowing what sort of flaws a 9 card can possess before dropping down a grade will be important for my future purchases, whether I should, despite having a picture of the card in its graded case, ask for detailed front and back scans before buying, or if I should just suck it up and pay the huge difference between 9s and 10s. Or even if I should try to locate ungraded copies that might get high grades instead of buying them already graded (although seeing near-pristine copies not in a graded case makes me really worry about counterfeits). Well, I'd be interested in hearing from people with a lot more experience with PSA grading than I have. Thanks, and I hope to become a regular around here as I get more knowledgable about the wonderful world of grading!
0
Comments
Hello to All ,
Hi Gishra ,
Any scans ?
----
Mark
Wow, that's a lot to respond to (lol). I think you sound like all of us did when we first started out here, so don't feel bad. I went the graded route to help improve my purchase quality too - way too many cards out there listed as "mint" that aren't even close. One of the biggest advantage of PSA graded cards is that I can be relatively sure of the condition, sight unseen. That being said, there will be variances in condition within the same grade. Likewise, if you can find a reliable grader who sells raw cards, you can do just as well as buying graded (they're tough to find, but they are out there
One of the reasons I decided to stick with 10's is the problem you described - often 2 cards in the same grade do look quite a bit different. I found this variance to get worse as you move down in grade, so sticking with 10's helps to minimize the problem (it does however create a "cash flow" problem... sigh). In the future I would recommend only buying cards where you have a good scan to look at, as it will help you eliminate the "sliders". I wish PSA was a little more consistant in their grading, so we didn't have this problem, but alas they are human too. At least if you get a PSA 9 you know its going to be a nice card, if not always perfect - I shudder to think how many cards listed as "mint" I'd have to buy to get as nice of a card
At this point I would try to examine as many graded cards as possible, to see what passes as a 10, 9, 8, etc. Over time you will get a better feel for what is a solid card for the grade, and what is a "slider". Sorry for the quick reply (at work and rather busy), hope this helps a little. Please speak up if you have any other questions or need anything - people here are pretty helpful, and we all love to share our collecting sickness
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Thanks for the welcome Thulnanth, and you're definitely right about how many cards listed as mint I'd have to buy to get a similar Emerald... while it isn't in the condition I would've hoped for, if I had bought a card mint from an online store and gotten one like this I would've definitely counted myself lucky. It got so bad recently that I was buying multiples of a card when I only wanted one copy, just out of the hope that one of them would be acceptable! So even if this system isn't perfect it's certainly better than the alternative! I'll make sure to ask for front and back pictures in the future to make sure Obe happy with the condition. Or just go for the tens all the time... my bank account might not like that as much, but it may end up being worth it.
Anyways, I also like how the site lets you keep an inventory of your graded collection, mine isn't much yet but here it is!:
http://www.psacard.com/SetRegistry/MySetRegistry/myitems.aspx?f=0
I just entered them and I honestly thought I had bought closer to a dozen commons, but I guess it was only 7 (although one of those is a lifelace which I suppose is technically a rare, but it cost only a little more than the commons did so I'm just counting it as one
As Thulnath says ... welcome to the sickness. :-)
In terms of your question(s). In my experience there are three kinds of Unlimited cards at grade 9:
1) Cards that would be PSA 10 except for a slight centring problem (sometimes these cards sneak through as 10s, but usually come back as 9s
2) Cards that would be a PSA 10 except for a couple of nicks or dings on the back or some surface dents which are hard to see unless you reflect the light off them in a certain way
3) Cards that should be PSA 8. :-)
The first two are relatively common, the last one ... I've never had any which look the way you're describing (i.e. clearly played) but then I have never bought any white-borded PSA 9 cards. The only ones I have seen have been ones I've graded myself which didn't make the grade to be PSA 10 for reasons 1) or 2). I have, however, had 1 or 2 PSA 10 cards (out of about 700 cards I own) which I thought should have been PSA 8.
On Alpha cards the one of the reasons "mint" cards tend to get grades other then PSA 10 is because the card cutting process wasn't that great and the corners of the cards generally aren't cleanly cut so you get a little specks of white showing which I guess the graders don't like. The cards come out the pack looking like that. So I would guess the same is partly true of the beta cards. It may also be that playdirt is a bit harder to detect on beta cards because of the black borders. Not sure on this one.
My PSA 9 Alphas look as good as my PSA 10 Unlimiteds (except for the corner "feature" I just mentioned above which is barely noticable to me).
So my answer would be that the card you have doesn't sound like a typical PSA 9 to me - you may want to consider talking to PSA to see if they will review it and give you compensation if they agree it is misgraded. I know they do this on some sports cards, I'm not sure how they do this on non-sports cards as I'm not sure they are quite so up-to-date with the values.
In terms of the card in the link. I would guess that it has a 15% chance of being a 7, 70% chance of being an 8 and 15% chance of being a 9. It's kind of card to tell without looking at it in person though - there could be marks on the surface. There are also what looks like dings on the bottom edge as well as the top. It is slightly off-centre on the first (not enough to affect it being a 9) and quite off-centre on the back (not sure how this would affect the grade as the back is usually a bit less important than the front as far as I can tell!)
The motto that people on the boards live by is "Buy the card, not the holder" so getting detailed scan before you buy is always advisable if you can, particularly with high-value cards. Asking if the seller has a return policy is also worth it - I'm not sure if sellers who accept paypal also have to be willing to accept returns anyway (maybe someone else can confirm?) if the card isn't what you expected then at least you can get a refund.
Hope this is useful!
<< <i>while it isn't in the condition I would've hoped for, if I had bought a card mint from an online store and gotten one like this I would've definitely counted myself lucky. It got so bad recently that I was buying multiples of a card when I only wanted one copy, just out of the hope that one of them would be acceptable! So even if this system isn't perfect it's certainly better than the alternative! >>
Truer words were never spoken - this is why I became a graded convert, be it cards or coins (my other love). If the price is right I'll always go with graded, even if I just plan to crack it out to fill a hole in my album.
...as for the hole in my head, my wife says there's little hope of filling that
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
I've also noticed that about Alpha cards I've bought, I don't think I've ever owned one that had four perfect corners. Those little white specks are really the only thing wrong with the PSA 8 Alpha Lotus I picked up recently, but it has them at all four corners, which I'm sure is what sunk it down to an 8 (on the other hand, I see why you guys refer to it as the sickness... how else to call a condition in which discussing little white specks on pieces of cardboard passes as fun?
Thulnanth-- Haha, that's hilarious. You obviously picked a great woman to marry, because I've been going under the assumption that I had to buy all of this stuff before I even think about getting married... I can't imagine that I'm capable of convincing a future Mrs. to agree to me spending hundreds of dollars a pop all the time on cards! I mean, I don't lose ALL sense when buying, as I've still managed to save about 1/4 of my net pay over the past year, and I've paid off my car early, bought new furniture... maybe as long as I can show that I'm not crippling myself financially I'll be okay?
And now you're getting me reminiscing about coin collecting. That was my first big collecting interest, started when I was ten... I remember loving proof coins, and the prize of my collection that I bought for my 12th birthday was an uncirculated Liberty V nickel. So... hmmm, I guess I've always been like this!
<< <i>and I had about 1,500 burning a hole in my pocket after that last second loss... >>
Yeah, even though it's made of paper, cash can be very "hot" at times...
It can be very tough to stick with a collecting plan - it took me years to develop one, and several more to get me to stick with it - lol. Now that I have, however, I am happier with my collection than I've ever been. Reading through these forums you'll find many who have the same "lack of focus" problem.
My wife is great, and she doesn't really mind my crazy hobbies, since they keep me busy. On the other hand, a few years back when I lost my senses and went wild buying tons of stuff she politely reined me in. I guess it's good someone did, as I really needed it
... I do miss the big scores, however
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.