So now I have disagreements with BOTH roadrunner and Mark who have been disagreeing with each other all along in this thread.
Oh man, maybe I will just spray some cool water on me after work on this hot day as I don't own a pool!
And seaeagle, the only coin I own that the 8-12 year old kids really like is the double shelled PCGS slab you sold me - the magician one that "falls apart" whenever you handle it like a normal person. They just love it. They laugh and laugh at each others crestfallen and fearful misery.
<< <i>So now I have disagreements with BOTH roadrunner and Mark who have been disagreeing with each other all along in this thread.
Oh man, maybe I will just spray some cool water on me after work on this hot day as I don't own a pool!
And seaeagle, the only coin I own that the 8-12 year old kids really like is the double shelled PCGS slab you sold me - the magician one that "falls apart" whenever you handle it like a normal person. They just love it. They laugh and laugh at each others crestfallen and fearful misery. >>
You are just sooooooo mean....
...but that is really funny.... wrong... but funny...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Here is a FRB item I first noticed 43 years ago which has gone unnoticed ever since. I probably don't have another 43 years to think about it.
In June 1965 The FR banks gave back to the treasury 99.955 % of their physical possession of series 1934 gold certificates in exchange for gold certificate credits with the Treasury. On May 31, 1965 the FRB's had $2,816,055,600 in series 1934 gold certificates. This was the same as November 30, 1960 when I first started saving the circulation statements. They also had $11,206,940,595 in gold certificate credits on May 31, 1965.
On June 30, 1965 the FR banks had $1,277,800 in 1934 GC's on hand which was the same on December 31,1965. After that, the monthly statements did not include these items. June 30, 1965 credits were $13,668,957,266.
In the grand scheme of things, this proably all means nothing. But I bet the conspiracy theorists among us will find something sinister here.
<<<Call that what you like. I call what you've just described "bad management".>>>
I couldn't agree more jmski, it's irresponsible and bad management. I was just pointing out that sometimes there are economic terms which have a specific meaning to economists and are misinterpreted by the public.
Although very interesting, one of the difficulties with this type of thread is that several of the posters do not have the depth of knowledge and experience to meaningfully argue with a couple of others. The “several” (I’ll use my deer carcass term ‘tin-hat blow flies’ just to keep them smiling) can do nothing more than repeat incomplete, wildly distorted invective promoted by others. However, repetition does not equal understanding, so one side ends up attempting to explain the basics to the “tin-hat blow flies” who don’t know what the words mean.
A useful debate occurs when both (or multiple) sides are equally expert. That is not the case, here.
<< <i>The Fedral Reserve Act of 1913 was pieced together by Senators Carter Glass and Robert Owen which created the Federal Reserve System of central banking institutions. A private bank could opt to join the sytem by purchasing ownership shares in the Federal Reserve bank in its district which would give it some say in the selection of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve bank and to check clearing services and other services that the district bank would provide.
To keep the Fed from being simply a "bankers club" Congress required that the majority of each Feds board of directors be composed of individuals representing the interests of the consumers and non financial business.
Congress charged the Fed with three tasks:
To develop and supervise the distribution of a national currency. To establish a nationally coordinated system of check clearing and collection services. To process the governments financial accounts and to serve as the central depository for government funds.
Before the Fed, the central bank was the First Bank of the United States created by Alexander Hamilton in 1791....this lasted till Congress did not renew its charter in 1811. The Second Bank of the United States was established due to the War of 1812 and lasted until 1837. The free banking period ran fron 1837 to 1912.
The Fed is concerned with monetary policy, is independent of the treasury and directs the monetary policy primarily through the purchase or sale of Treasury securities (T-bonds, T-notes, and T-bills) called open market operations, it also can influence the supply of money through the required reserve ratio of depository institutions but rarely uses this power. It also can influence the monetary base and quantities of money by changing the terms by which it lends reserves through the discount window.
You can take a whole college course on how the Feds use these tools in conducting monetary policy but basically thats it.
Edited to add: No, the Fed does not own a currency or coin collection.... that is the province of the Smithsonian. >>
Great answer, a bit off though for contemporary times. Oftentimes now the Fed exerts its policy in less than offical ways...to use a hyperbolic (supremely exaggerated) example, if the Fed decided that a boost in grain sales would help the economy they would have Alan Greenspan say something about the rising popularity of the pancake industry, thus causing an increase in pancake production and thus causing an increase in grain sales.
RWB, is it possible this is a definition of learning and education? I meaningfully argue with my wife, son, co-workers, neighbors and collectors on many subjects I don't have in-depth knowledge about and always learn something. I am probably the definition of a tin- hat blowfly. I appreciate anyone explaining the basis (or non-basis) of a wildly distorted invective. As a matter of fact, I have been enjoying such comments all night, watching election coverage. We all had to learn to use the toilet( I assume). Respectfully, John Curlis
<<<Great answer, a bit off though for contemporary times. Oftentimes now the Fed exerts its policy in less than offical ways...to use a hyperbolic (supremely exaggerated) example, if the Fed decided that a boost in grain sales would help the economy they would have Alan Greenspan say something about the rising popularity of the pancake industry, thus causing an increase in pancake production and thus causing an increase in grain sales.>>>
I love your analogy Tvac, the subtlety of Fed moves can be hard to discern. You get the finer points of market moves, and I suspect Wall Street would be buying up shares in IHOP as well.
I just saw a guy on TV talking about the FED who seems to have a good understanding of what's been going on. He's Willian Greider and has written "Come Home America". I'm not familiar with the au- thor or the book but am sure it's insightful.
His contention rests largely on his concept that the FED has been fa- voring capital to labor since 1980. It's not the way I'd phrase it but it does amount to the same thing.
He's also calling for a reintroduction of usury laws and punishment of the agencies which have failed to enforce the laws for 28 years as well as criminal sanctions for those still engaging in nefarious activ- ities.
Although very interesting, one of the difficulties with this type of thread is that several of the posters do not have the depth of knowledge and experience to meaningfully argue with a couple of others. The “several” (I’ll use my deer carcass term ‘tin-hat blow flies’ just to keep them smiling) can do nothing more than repeat incomplete, wildly distorted invective promoted by others. However, repetition does not equal understanding, so one side ends up attempting to explain the basics to the “tin-hat blow flies” who don’t know what the words mean.
A useful debate occurs when both (or multiple) sides are equally expert. That is not the case, here.
This is simply an amazingly smug comment. Who are you calling these names, RWB? (I've always found that when I'm wrong in a debate, it's helpful to start calling the other side disparaging names.) You're right about one thing - it's not worth the debate.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
jmski52, not only is it a smug comment it suggest that only "economists" or politicians can understand the intracacies of the economy and how to maneuver it....when in reality, every maneuver only distorts it too far in the wrong direction. It's just a mess today.
The bottom line is that the politicians, bankers and economists have basically bankrupted the nation. Enron taught us nothing except how to not get caught next time. That lesson cost only a few billion while the newest lessons have already cost us TRILLIONS with only about 10-15% of the actual damages brought to the surface. The proof is in the pancakes and the pudding. While the smugsters can feel superior in their theories, it is only reality that matters. Look where we are, and where we are headed for the next 5-7 years. In the end, it's all that matters. Our leaders keep telling us the worst is behind us, and progress is being made. Yet we know better. We knew these days were coming over 4 years ago as they were discussed right here. Those that diminish the criminality involved by our higher ups ensure that we repeat the process again someday. It's just business.
Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
Jay Leno wrote this; it's the Jay Leno we don't often see...
As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the mark
'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given
the source, right?
The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?''
A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week?
B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?
C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?
D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?
E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?
F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?
G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either.
H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.
I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home
J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, your family, and your belongings.
K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.
L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell phones and computers.
M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?
Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.
Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S., yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.
Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it.
The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discha rge after a few days in the brig.
So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans?
Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!
Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?'
Jay Leno
Edited to add: kudos to mrpotatohead for clearing up the misinformation......this was not written by Jay Leno but by Craig R. Smith but that doesn't make it any less true
Jay has a lot to be grateful for having worked his way up from a standup comedian with a "funny chin" to top of the TV talk shows. You can bet that the gas prices aren't curtailing his use of his cherished collector cars and motorcycles. He is not your typical middle class American today. I'm not so concerned about conditions this very minute, but what things will be like within 5-10 years as the fallout from the abuses of the past 25 yrs finally wash themselves out. I think there will be heck to pay for most Americans. They will not have seen this kind of pain since the 1930's. Maybe not the entire country, but many portions of it. The standard of living Jay describes in his many points isn't going to be there for many Americans who now take it for granted. The urban sprawl economy is going to retrace back towards the cities and leave huge losses in that wake. Citizens depended on the congress, FED, president, and their local leaders to keep them safe. They trusted them to do the right thing. Such is a constitutional republic. Now it might be better if we tossed out approx 600 leaders and replaced them with working class Americans with 2-4 year limits. They could do no worse, even if they called in sick half the time. Most board members here could represent the nation better and with more integrity.
Oreville, we definitely agree on the blame. But this thread is about the FED and not congress. My concern is that the FED is perceived as a blameless entity who is trying fix the wrongs of congress. That's just false. The FED has overstepped its bounds in recent years to the point where the CAN creat unlimited liquidity in our system w/o congressional approval or oversight. The congress is in charge of a TRILLION dollar budget. But the FED has in essence overseen the creation of hundreds of TRILLIONS in credit liquidity over the past 10-15 years. Their role far exceeds anything given to them in the act of 1913 or any changes since. They can dump $100 BILL into the marketplace tomorrow w/o any approval. With the PPT they control the strings on many markets. What major markets don't they tinker with each day to manipulate public perceptions?
I'd agree that a $50 million painting is a form of inflation but it's a form that doesn't affect the average person very meaningfully. It's made possible by profits from all kinds of enterprises being funneled to the few at the top while shareholders content themselves with rising stock prices and the company's manufacturing plant being disassembled and shipped to China. It's made possible by an electorate which is satisfied with a failed educational system and the status quo.
This is just more fuel to the theory that inflation makes the rich better off. Those are the ones buying these assets in order to preserve their wealth. The average guy has no understanding of a $4 MILL 1804 silver dollar or a $70 MILL Rembrandt.
The big banks are not so concerned about inflation. That is their primary mechanism to take your wealth via interest rate loans. Believe me, they like it. They could not take our wealth with zero inflation or even say deflation. The goal in Parker Bros. "Monopoly" is to end up with all the properties. Having all the cash is nice, but not essential. The value of the properties keeps up with all the inflation while the cash being passed around becomes worth less. If you have all the properties, you will eventually get all the cash as you set all the terms. This is what the big banks and FED are working towards. The FED (with tacit permission from a clueless congress) has an essentially free hand to manage markets towards this expectation. Buy all the assets as cheaply as you can by manipulating stocks lower than a free market would dictate. Right now, the banks are much more worried about a complete financial system implosion which would leave JPM, Citi, Merrill, Wachovia, Lehman, Goldman, and most of the rest of the world banks out of business. They can surely suffer a tad bit of inflation or even hyperinflation in order to continue to confiscate assets. The longer they keep it functioning, the more they acquire, and at distressed prices (many of these company's owners are also big holders in gold, oil, energy, agri, etc so that they have huge nest eggs to tide them over when things do hit the fan). The owners of Barrick Gold are likely cartel connected (Carlisle group) and would love nothing than to continue to acquire as many cheap juniors as they can for rock bottom prices. They are a key level in keeping gold prices manageable for now, while they try to consolidate the gold industry. Getting all the wealth ultimately means consolidating all the little companies into one big giant...and owning the majority of said giant (JPM, GS, Exxon, Barrick, etc.). This current consolidiation phase is the last one. JPMorgan himself would be proud of the Monopolies.
In regard to your question earlier about "moral hazard". It may not be what you expect, in economics it refers to the possibility that a borrower may engage in more risky behavior after a loan has been made.
I don't see the issue. Either the borrower pays off the loan on schedule or he doesn't. If he wants to engage in as much risky behavior as he can stand, that's really none of my business - unless it affects me. And if it does affect me financially, then I ought to have a large say in the matter as to how his assets are disposed.
So, what's Bernake's problem? The only moral hazard I see is that when Bernake decides that Bear Sterns' management should be given a reprieve at the expense of everybody else, he is screwing me, personally.
Same goes for when he cuts slack to Lehman Brothers management, and Ginnie Mae's management, and Freddie Mac's management, and IndyMac's management. They should all be prosecuted for fiduciary malfeasance and grand theft. Instead, they get more money - taxpayer money.
If the whole thing isn't corruption on a massive scale, then I'm a "tin-hat blow fly who doesn't know what the words mean". Yeah, right.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
THBF..........tin hat blow fly, that's me too. So what do we call the guys that got us here (ie Bernanke, Greenspan, and Paulson)?
paper hat, anal-retentive, turds? PHART.
I'd feel better if you called me a gold hat blow fly. GHBF.
Greenspan wrote many years before becoming a central banker: "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation" (published by Ayn Rand in 1966). .......check out those last 3 words.
<< <i>Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
>>
Perhaps it's the armed gangs that run the cities rather than learning how to read and write.
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income. How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar- ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies.
Ironic that this cycle turns around on "twinkies." Back as a lad of 5 back in 1959 I would run to the corner drug store with my weekly 10c allowance and plop it down for a Twinkie or Vanilla snowball. Nearly 50 years later, and I'm back eating Twinkies.
Well I am sorry I live in the Eastern Time zone and so went to bed early as far as this thread is concerned. However, even in the bright light of the morning it is hard for me to know how to respond to a thread that starts with the Fed and moves to children being murdered in the streets and Twinkies. I think the Fed is to blame for many things but it is a stretch for me to think of the Fed as being the cause of the tragic death of young people and the existence of Twinkies. In all seriousness, perhaps I am more optimistic than cladking and roadrunner because I see and teach about 5,000 incredibly bright and energetic college students a year. I realize that the young people I see are just one slice of society but it's hard not to retain optimism when dealing with them day in and day out. However, what has the Fed to do with this? Nada and zip.
Anyway, from my perspective, this thread is about played out. I don't see any chance on my part to convince non-believers about the ownership of the Fed much less the Fed's operations. But it was fun and I hope/expect to engage in similar debates in threads yet to born.
Bottom Line: Fed and Treasury Dept. are run by former Private Industry financial experts. Their loyalty has and will always lie with Wall Street and their former employers. Recent moves by both have loaded the taxpayer with more liability than he is ever capable of funding.
Let the markets (all of them) be free!
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
those 5000 students have been officially brainwashed into our system of unlimited credit, pure fiat, and gold IS a barbarous relic only meant for jewelry. They were too young to even experience the recession of 1990-1993. But over the next 10 yrs they will get the equivalent of a Master's course in market finances and economics...on how not to do things next time around. Those students are not alone as most people born in the mid-1970's are equally as brainwashed into the pure fiat credit experiment...or what the Romans called Bread and Circus. Today the bread is going up in price and getting scarce but the Circus is ever-growing, but costing more to buy a ticket.
This morning I got to see a taped version of Bernanke speaking before the Senate Banking Committee earlier this week. I was surprised at his meekish demeanor, almost affable and acting like one of the sheeple as if all of this stuff is a surprise to him as well (lol). J6P could buy into that crap.
Seeing Sen. Bunning rip into Ben was a treat. Bunning called the FED the "systemic risk" in our economy and to give them further powers and unchecked funds to bail out Fan & Fred would be ludicrous. In other words he called the FED's actions of the past several months to be blatant socialism. Greenspan's actions over the past decade as well as Ben's contributions over the past 2-1/2 years were cited as the major course for our current financial plight. Sure, tacitly implied is that congress' lack of oversight to control the FED allowed it to go unchecked. But the FED has been working outside their normal boundaries and is really no longer even answerable to anyone, other than a brief trip to the hill to be questioned. Bunning pointed out the irony of the FED/Treasury asking for additional powers when they only recently used powers dusted off from the 1994 Mortgage regulations bill to help stem today's tide.
Of particular note was gentle Ben's comment that OTC derivatives are in fact self-regulated by the very people that use them (you know, the fox and hen-house thing). This is quite contrary to many other experts who consider them to be fully unregulated, without recourse, without substantiation, w/o transparency, and often impossible to value. Ben suggested that nothing has gone wrong with the OTC derivatives (....all $400 TRILL of them) and that they are still needed going forward to hedge risks (uh-huh). Hey Ben, isn't one-half $$ QUAD of hedges enough risk-deferment for you?
When asked by Sen. Evan Bayh when the housing crunch would end, Ben dodged that missile in saying that we're in tough times and dealing with it all. A number of the committee members asked Ben softball questions and congratulated him on his actions with BSC and Fannie Freddie as if he did something extraordinary. It would seem that only Bunning gets it, and his fellow members chuckled about his comments stating, "tell us how you really feel" as he shredded Bernanke. I hadn't heard anything from Mel Martinez in years (R-FLA) and didn't even realize he was on the Banking committee. I remember Mel in the news from a few years back when he misplaced $60 BILL while head of HUD. He was of course rewarded for his service by being elected US Senator. Jeb and GW were proud to keep him in the fold....and to get on the banking committee as well! That's where I want guys that lose $60 BILL of taxpayer money. I hear that OJ is helping Mel look for the missing $60 BILL.
I was a bright and energetic economics student once as well being fed the same diet of Keynesian crapola and pure fiat. It would be interesting to go back to 1972-1973 again and here what my profs were saying about fiat/gold at that time. All I remember were anal charts and curves, guns and butter, and that tax cuts could stimulate the economy out of anything. Then again, we were only in the first 2 yrs of the fiat experiment. Today we have the added benefit of 35 more years of outcomes to play with. Move over guns and butter, because fiat, design inflation, otc derivatives, and gold might just make it into the next version of text books.
<< <i>Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
>>
Perhaps it's the armed gangs that run the cities rather than learning how to read and write.
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income. How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar- ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies. >>
And yet many of these people will whine and cry for even more socialism.
MrEarlygold, when the theory of economics has to be applied to down-trodden city neighborhoods, gangs, and yes...twinkies, economists have no concrete explanation as to how we got here or how to get out of it. Economics is best taught in the classroom....and left there. It has little application in the outside world other than to obscufate the truth or give professionals a background of sorts in the business field so that at least they can talk the same language. In that regards it is truly the dismal science. If they just stuck to real facts without the white washing, it would make orderly and predictive sense just like mathematics and physics. Economics as used today seems more a political tool to justify policies created out of thin air.
I wonder if in the CPI the quality factor of Twinkies has been going up so that the net price falls? With the shrinkage in the packaging the net change is probably about 13X since 1960. And if you factor in the 30% "better tastes" of today, we're back to 10X again. Wait a minute, I forgot the substitutional effects. Since Twinkies are not as affordable at a $1 a package, the consumer will substitute a "Little Debbie" item for half the price. So that drops the price change to 5X. See how little actual inflation there has been since 1960 using the BLS statistical methods? That works out to around the 3%/yr target inflation rate.
You've got to give the financial 'experts' credit---I must admit-----they are GOOD.
In the olden days, when Uncle Harry had to get a 'SECOND MORTGAGE'.........it was all hush-hush because it denoted that Harry was in trouble.
Nowadays ---the Home Equity Line of Credit is cool. Uncle Harry can brag about his 'creditworthiness' by the amount of his capacity to borrow. And be forever a prisoner of debt. He can borrow a thousand dollars to buy a washer and dryer that flames out after 10 years but can have the pleasure of deducting the interest and pay for it over 30 years. With the AMERICAN consumer being sold this bill of goods, it's no wonder that 'OUR' financial picture looks like it does.
It ain't what you make, it's what you keep.
Furthermore to the poster that challanged anybody to name 3 banks.................There are over 10,000 depositers that have over a hundred grand each in INDYMAC that as of now are uninsured and holding cotton candy. These people could have structured their accounts to BE INSURED but were "GUIDED" by the people of INDIMAC to do it so as to leave these depositors vulnerable. A married couple can insure about $400,000 and another $250,000 in their IRA but have to do it correctly to qualify for FDIC coverage.
<< <i><<<Great answer, a bit off though for contemporary times. Oftentimes now the Fed exerts its policy in less than offical ways...to use a hyperbolic (supremely exaggerated) example, if the Fed decided that a boost in grain sales would help the economy they would have Alan Greenspan say something about the rising popularity of the pancake industry, thus causing an increase in pancake production and thus causing an increase in grain sales.>>>
I love your analogy Tvac, the subtlety of Fed moves can be hard to discern. You get the finer points of market moves, and I suspect Wall Street would be buying up shares in IHOP as well. >>
Thanks, I recommend waffle house though...better distribution.
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-style: italic">The original question about ‘who’ owns the fed can’t be answered, simply because it is not public knowledge.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The thing that surprises many people is that the Fed is not <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I>a government owned or operated institution such as the Treasury Department as an example</I></B>. It’s just a privately held corporation.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was created hand in hand along with the IRS.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One loans money, the other collects it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And, according to the (Reagan administration) Grace Commission report, not a dime of tax goes to running the government.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The bills paid by the gov’t come from tariffs, excise taxes, import taxes, etc.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Every article of clothing you wear, every part of the car you drive has been taxed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-style: italic"><o> </o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-style: italic"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o> </o></SPAN></I> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o> </o></SPAN></I> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o> </o></SPAN></I> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 3.5in; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 6"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 5"> </SPAN>New York City, </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">December 17, 1913 </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">"'My Dear Senator Weeks: </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">"'Throughout my public life I have supported all measures designed to take the Government out of the banking business. This bill puts the Government into the banking business as never before in our history. "'The powers vested in the Federal Reserve Board seen to me highly dangerous especially where there is political control of the Board. I should be sorry to hold stock in a bank subject to such dominations. The bill as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency. "'I had hoped to support this bill, but I cannot vote for it cause it seems to me to contain features and to rest upon principles in the highest degree menacing to our prosperity, to stability in business, and to the general welfare of the people of the United States. </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Very Truly Yours, </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Henry Cabot Lodge.'"</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o></o></SPAN> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><o><FONT face=Calibri size=3> </FONT></o>
The original question about ‘who’ owns the fed can’t be answered, simply because it is not public knowledge. The thing that surprises many people is that the Fed is not a government owned or operated institution such as the Treasury Department as an example. It’s just a privately held corporation. It was created hand in hand along with the IRS. One loans money, the other collects it. And, according to the (Reagan administration) Grace Commission report, not a dime of tax goes to running the government. The bills paid by the gov’t come from tariffs, excise taxes, import taxes, etc. Every article of clothing you wear, every part of the car you drive has been taxed.
New York City, December 17, 1913 "'My Dear Senator Weeks: "'Throughout my public life I have supported all measures designed to take the Government out of the banking business. This bill puts the Government into the banking business as never before in our history. "'The powers vested in the Federal Reserve Board seen to me highly dangerous especially where there is political control of the Board. I should be sorry to hold stock in a bank subject to such dominations. The bill as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency. "'I had hoped to support this bill, but I cannot vote for it cause it seems to me to contain features and to rest upon principles in the highest degree menacing to our prosperity, to stability in business, and to the general welfare of the people of the United States. Very Truly Yours, Henry Cabot Lodge.'"
<<<<<<<Perhaps it's the armed gangs that run the cities rather than learning how to read and write.
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income. How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar- ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies.>>>>>>>
The irony in this statement is just too much to pass up and I'm sure the poster doesn't even see it. Where did the poster get this information....... do you think he is right on the street with the armed gangs? Has he witnessed the murder of DOZENS of children? I seriously doubt it. So where did the information come from? Chances are, he heard it on the news, because as was stated earlier .... if it bleeds, it leads. The media for some reason wants to keep us in a permanent state of anger and outright disgust about what is happening in our society. The point of the article the poster was critisizing is that a great deal of the unhappiness in this country is caused because people listen to the medias relentless stream of bad news.
When the TV says "Warning, contains scenes of... may not be suitable for children" do you think they mean....turn off the TV? No, they are actually saying ...watch this closely we will run it in slo-mo over and over so you can.
People sit on their duffs, watch the news, get in a huff and have no idea why. Then they post on here and say "in the real world"... real world? Come on, give me a break! I agree with Mark and say this thread has no merit anymore. The conspiratists, kooks, and "in the real world" ers have to vent somewhere and this is as good a place as any. Vent away noble informers!
<< <i>Well I am sorry I live in the Eastern Time zone and so went to bed early as far as this thread is concerned. However, even in the bright light of the morning it is hard for me to know how to respond to a thread that starts with the Fed and moves to children being murdered in the streets and Twinkies. I think the Fed is to blame for many things but it is a stretch for me to think of the Fed as being the cause of the tragic death of young people and the existence of Twinkies. In all seriousness, perhaps I am more optimistic than cladking and roadrunner because I see and teach about 5,000 incredibly bright and energetic college students a year. I realize that the young people I see are just one slice of society but it's hard not to retain optimism when dealing with them day in and day out. However, what has the Fed to do with this? Nada and zip.
Anyway, from my perspective, this thread is about played out. I don't see any chance on my part to convince non-believers about the ownership of the Fed much less the Fed's operations. But it was fun and I hope/expect to engage in similar debates in threads yet to born. >>
You misunderstand my point.
I'm not pessimistic and I don't believe the FED directly caused any of this.
At the risk of taking this even farther of topic I think much of the problem that caused the mess of the 20th century was in 1913 as well. Freud taught the world that we aren't responsible for our actions as individuals or as members of groups and it's been downhill ever since.
As I've said many times there is nothing inherantly wrong with fiat currency. Ulti- mately all money derives it's entire value from the belief of the people. It's much easier to maintain belief in fiat than in gold because faith in government is much more stable than gold supplies or peoples' perception of gold supply. The world has become much too complicated and dependent on the operation of the overall economy to experience unpredictable and periodic panics caused by currency.
But like all money fiat is suscepible to being debased. It's actually easier when you can do it right out in the open. The inflation since 913 hasn't been caused by the FED, it's been caused by Congress.
Allowing gangs and other criminals to roam free is much more an outgrowth of the idea that they aren't responsible than it is the FED.
There are a lot of bright young people and this is the main reason that I can remain optimistic in the situation we find ourselves. One does have to worry about the mil- lions being failed by the schools though. One does have to worry about trends which are still not going in the right direction and the continuing mentality that everything is a societal or governmental problem. We continue to turn to government to solve problems they created.
The conspiratists, kooks, and "in the real world" ers have to vent somewhere and this is as good a place as any. Vent away noble informers!
I agree. These are the same "kooks" that believe in the benign and altruistic FED theory of banking. Hi, we're from the FED and we're to help you. If the kooks would leave their ivory towers, Washington D.C., or 50 story office buildings once in a while, they might really experience what is going on. If the regulators would have regulated, we'd not be in this pickle.
I have been out of town and have not checked up on this thread until today.
Sems I have a lot of catching up to do. Looking at the number and length of the replies, I suspect that reading through each one and trying to understand each one will take quite a lot of mental energy and time.
Since I started the thread, I guess I should read everything, if for nothing else to avoid considering myself to be a pansy-wimp
When I get through things, I will toss in my two cents worth.
I would not keep too many dollars in a bank. In fact, I don't even trust safe deposit boxes in banks. I believe that in the days of the great depression, if you wanted to open up your safe deposit box, you had to do so in the presence of a US Government employee. I believe that the dollar is going to completely collapse by 2010. With the bank failures and dollar collapse, I think a new currency will be created.........AMEROS ANYONE?
<<would not keep too many dollars in a bank. In fact, I don't even trust safe deposit boxes in banks. I believe that in the days of the great depression, if you wanted to open up your safe deposit box, you had to do so in the presence of a US Government employee. I believe that the dollar is going to completely collapse by 2010. With the bank failures and dollar collapse, I think a new currency will be created.........>>
Comments
Oh man, maybe I will just spray some cool water on me after work on this hot day as I don't own a pool!
And seaeagle, the only coin I own that the 8-12 year old kids really like is the double shelled PCGS slab you sold me - the magician one that "falls apart" whenever you handle it like a normal person. They just love it. They laugh and laugh at each others crestfallen and fearful misery.
<< <i>So now I have disagreements with BOTH roadrunner and Mark who have been disagreeing with each other all along in this thread.
Oh man, maybe I will just spray some cool water on me after work on this hot day as I don't own a pool!
And seaeagle, the only coin I own that the 8-12 year old kids really like is the double shelled PCGS slab you sold me - the magician one that "falls apart" whenever you handle it like a normal person. They just love it. They laugh and laugh at each others crestfallen and fearful misery. >>
You are just sooooooo mean....
...but that is really funny.... wrong... but funny...
In June 1965 The FR banks gave back to the treasury 99.955 % of their physical possession of series 1934 gold certificates in exchange for gold certificate credits with the Treasury. On May 31, 1965 the FRB's had $2,816,055,600 in series 1934 gold certificates. This was the same as November 30, 1960 when I first started saving the circulation statements. They also had $11,206,940,595 in gold certificate credits on May 31, 1965.
On June 30, 1965 the FR banks had $1,277,800 in 1934 GC's on hand which was the same on December 31,1965. After that, the monthly statements did not include these items. June 30, 1965 credits were $13,668,957,266.
In the grand scheme of things, this proably all means nothing. But I bet the conspiracy theorists among us will find something sinister here.
I couldn't agree more jmski, it's irresponsible and bad management. I was just pointing out that sometimes there are economic terms which have a specific meaning to economists and are misinterpreted by the public.
A useful debate occurs when both (or multiple) sides are equally expert. That is not the case, here.
<< <i>The Fedral Reserve Act of 1913 was pieced together by Senators Carter Glass and Robert Owen which created the Federal Reserve System of central banking institutions. A private bank could opt to join the sytem by purchasing ownership shares in the Federal Reserve bank in its district which would give it some say in the selection of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve bank and to check clearing services and other services that the district bank would provide.
To keep the Fed from being simply a "bankers club" Congress required that the majority of each Feds board of directors be composed of individuals representing the interests of the consumers and non financial business.
Congress charged the Fed with three tasks:
To develop and supervise the distribution of a national currency.
To establish a nationally coordinated system of check clearing and collection services.
To process the governments financial accounts and to serve as the central depository for government funds.
Before the Fed, the central bank was the First Bank of the United States created by Alexander Hamilton in 1791....this lasted till Congress did not renew its charter in 1811. The Second Bank of the United States was established due to the War of 1812 and lasted until 1837. The free banking period ran fron 1837 to 1912.
The Fed is concerned with monetary policy, is independent of the treasury and directs the monetary policy primarily through the purchase or sale of Treasury securities (T-bonds, T-notes, and T-bills) called open market operations, it also can influence the supply of money through the required reserve ratio of depository institutions but rarely uses this power. It also can influence the monetary base and quantities of money by changing the terms by which it lends reserves through the discount window.
You can take a whole college course on how the Feds use these tools in conducting monetary policy but basically thats it.
Edited to add: No, the Fed does not own a currency or coin collection.... that is the province of the Smithsonian. >>
Great answer, a bit off though for contemporary times. Oftentimes now the Fed exerts its policy in less than offical ways...to use a hyperbolic (supremely exaggerated) example, if the Fed decided that a boost in grain sales would help the economy they would have Alan Greenspan say something about the rising popularity of the pancake industry, thus causing an increase in pancake production and thus causing an increase in grain sales.
I love your analogy Tvac, the subtlety of Fed moves can be hard to discern. You get the finer points of market moves, and I suspect Wall Street would be buying up shares in IHOP as well.
a good understanding of what's been going on. He's Willian Greider
and has written "Come Home America". I'm not familiar with the au-
thor or the book but am sure it's insightful.
His contention rests largely on his concept that the FED has been fa-
voring capital to labor since 1980. It's not the way I'd phrase it but
it does amount to the same thing.
He's also calling for a reintroduction of usury laws and punishment
of the agencies which have failed to enforce the laws for 28 years as
well as criminal sanctions for those still engaging in nefarious activ-
ities.
A useful debate occurs when both (or multiple) sides are equally expert. That is not the case, here.
This is simply an amazingly smug comment. Who are you calling these names, RWB? (I've always found that when I'm wrong in a debate, it's helpful to start calling the other side disparaging names.) You're right about one thing - it's not worth the debate.
I knew it would happen.
The bottom line is that the politicians, bankers and economists have basically bankrupted the nation. Enron taught us nothing except how to not get caught next time. That lesson cost only a few billion while the newest lessons have already cost us TRILLIONS with only about 10-15% of the actual damages brought to the surface. The proof is in the pancakes and the pudding. While the smugsters can feel superior in their theories, it is only reality that matters. Look where we are, and where we are headed for the next 5-7 years. In the end, it's all that matters. Our leaders keep telling us the worst is behind us, and progress is being made. Yet we know better. We knew these days were coming over 4 years ago as they were discussed right here. Those that diminish the criminality involved by our higher ups ensure that we repeat the process again someday. It's just business.
roadrunner
Jay Leno wrote this; it's the Jay Leno we don't often see...
As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the mark
'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given
the source, right?
The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?''
A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week?
B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?
C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?
D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?
E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?
F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?
G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either.
H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.
I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home
J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, your family, and your belongings.
K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.
L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell phones and computers.
M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?
Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.
Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S., yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.
Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it.
The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discha rge after a few days in the brig.
So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans?
Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!
Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?'
Jay Leno
Edited to add: kudos to mrpotatohead for clearing up the misinformation......this was not written by Jay Leno but by Craig R. Smith but that doesn't make it any less true
<< <i>Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
Jay Leno wrote this; it's the Jay Leno we don't often see... >>
Snopes is your friend...
Oreville, we definitely agree on the blame. But this thread is about the FED and not congress. My concern is that the FED is perceived as a blameless entity who is trying fix the wrongs of congress. That's just false. The FED has overstepped its bounds in recent years to the point where the CAN creat unlimited liquidity in our system w/o congressional approval or oversight. The congress is in charge of a TRILLION dollar budget. But the FED has in essence overseen the creation of hundreds of TRILLIONS in credit liquidity over the past 10-15 years. Their role far exceeds anything given to them in the act of 1913 or any changes since. They can dump $100 BILL into the marketplace tomorrow w/o any approval. With the PPT they control the strings on many markets. What major markets don't they tinker with each day to manipulate public perceptions?
I'd agree that a $50 million painting is a form of inflation but it's a form that doesn't affect the average person very meaningfully. It's made possible by profits from all kinds of enterprises being funneled to the few at the top while shareholders content themselves with rising stock prices and the company's manufacturing plant being disassembled and shipped to China. It's made possible by an electorate which is satisfied with a failed educational system and the status quo.
This is just more fuel to the theory that inflation makes the rich better off. Those are the ones buying these assets in order to preserve their wealth. The average guy has no understanding of a $4 MILL 1804 silver dollar or a $70 MILL Rembrandt.
The big banks are not so concerned about inflation. That is their primary mechanism to take your wealth via interest rate loans. Believe me, they like it. They could not take our wealth with zero inflation or even say deflation. The goal in Parker Bros. "Monopoly" is to end up with all the properties. Having all the cash is nice, but not essential. The value of the properties keeps up with all the inflation while the cash being passed around becomes worth less. If you have all the properties, you will eventually get all the cash as you set all the terms. This is what the big banks and FED are working towards. The FED (with tacit permission from a clueless congress) has an essentially free hand to manage markets towards this expectation. Buy all the assets as cheaply as you can by manipulating stocks lower than a free market would dictate. Right now, the banks are much more worried about a complete financial system implosion which would leave JPM, Citi, Merrill, Wachovia, Lehman, Goldman, and most of the rest of the world banks out of business. They can surely suffer a tad bit of inflation or even hyperinflation in order to continue to confiscate assets. The longer they keep it functioning, the more they acquire, and at distressed prices (many of these company's owners are also big holders in gold, oil, energy, agri, etc so that they have huge nest eggs to tide them over when things do hit the fan). The owners of Barrick Gold are likely cartel connected (Carlisle group) and would love nothing than to continue to acquire as many cheap juniors as they can for rock bottom prices. They are a key level in keeping gold prices manageable for now, while they try to consolidate the gold industry. Getting all the wealth ultimately means consolidating all the little companies into one big giant...and owning the majority of said giant (JPM, GS, Exxon, Barrick, etc.). This current consolidiation phase is the last one. JPMorgan himself would be proud of the Monopolies.
roadrunner
<< <i>The standard of living Jay describes in his many points... >>
Psssst... rr- Jay didn't really say that. It was actually written by Craig R. Smith on WorldNetDaily.
I don't see the issue. Either the borrower pays off the loan on schedule or he doesn't. If he wants to engage in as much risky behavior as he can stand, that's really none of my business - unless it affects me. And if it does affect me financially, then I ought to have a large say in the matter as to how his assets are disposed.
So, what's Bernake's problem? The only moral hazard I see is that when Bernake decides that Bear Sterns' management should be given a reprieve at the expense of everybody else, he is screwing me, personally.
Same goes for when he cuts slack to Lehman Brothers management, and Ginnie Mae's management, and Freddie Mac's management, and IndyMac's management. They should all be prosecuted for fiduciary malfeasance and grand theft. Instead, they get more money - taxpayer money.
If the whole thing isn't corruption on a massive scale, then I'm a "tin-hat blow fly who doesn't know what the words mean". Yeah, right.
I knew it would happen.
THBF..........tin hat blow fly, that's me too. So what do we call the guys that got us here (ie Bernanke, Greenspan, and Paulson)?
paper hat, anal-retentive, turds? PHART.
I'd feel better if you called me a gold hat blow fly. GHBF.
Greenspan wrote many years before becoming a central banker: "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation" (published by Ayn Rand in 1966). .......check out those last 3 words.
roadrunner
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
>>
Perhaps it's the armed gangs that run the cities rather than learning how to read and write.
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work
four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the
independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so
much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on
the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to
join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in
great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income.
How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar-
ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the
trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long
time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will
be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the
line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting
good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies.
Ironic that this cycle turns around on "twinkies." Back as a lad of 5 back in 1959 I would run to the corner drug store with my weekly 10c allowance and plop it down for a Twinkie or Vanilla snowball.
Nearly 50 years later, and I'm back eating Twinkies.
roadrunner
Anyway, from my perspective, this thread is about played out. I don't see any chance on my part to convince non-believers about the ownership of the Fed much less the Fed's operations. But it was fun and I hope/expect to engage in similar debates in threads yet to born.
Fed and Treasury Dept. are run by former Private Industry financial experts. Their loyalty has and will always lie with Wall Street and their former employers. Recent moves by both have loaded the taxpayer with more liability than he is ever capable of funding.
Let the markets (all of them) be free!
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
those 5000 students have been officially brainwashed into our system of unlimited credit, pure fiat, and gold IS a barbarous relic only meant for jewelry. They were too young to even experience the recession of 1990-1993. But over the next 10 yrs they will get the equivalent of a Master's course in market finances and economics...on how not to do things next time around. Those students are not alone as most people born in the mid-1970's are equally as brainwashed into the pure fiat credit experiment...or what the Romans called Bread and Circus. Today the bread is going up in price and getting scarce but the Circus is ever-growing, but costing more to buy a ticket.
This morning I got to see a taped version of Bernanke speaking before the Senate Banking Committee earlier this week. I was surprised at his meekish demeanor, almost affable and acting like one of the sheeple as if all of this stuff is a surprise to him as well (lol). J6P could buy into that crap.
Seeing Sen. Bunning rip into Ben was a treat. Bunning called the FED the "systemic risk" in our economy and to give them further powers and unchecked funds to bail out Fan & Fred would be ludicrous. In other words he called the FED's actions of the past several months to be blatant socialism. Greenspan's actions over the past decade as well as Ben's contributions over the past 2-1/2 years were cited as the major course for our current financial plight. Sure, tacitly implied is that congress' lack of oversight to control the FED allowed it to go unchecked. But the FED has been working outside their normal boundaries and is really no longer even answerable to anyone, other than a brief trip to the hill to be questioned. Bunning pointed out the irony of the FED/Treasury asking for additional powers when they only recently used powers dusted off from the 1994 Mortgage regulations bill to help stem today's tide.
Of particular note was gentle Ben's comment that OTC derivatives are in fact self-regulated by the very people that use them (you know, the fox and hen-house thing). This is quite contrary to many other experts who consider them to be fully unregulated, without recourse, without substantiation, w/o transparency, and often impossible to value. Ben suggested that nothing has gone wrong with the OTC derivatives (....all $400 TRILL of them) and that they are still needed going forward to hedge risks (uh-huh). Hey Ben, isn't one-half $$ QUAD of hedges enough risk-deferment for you?
When asked by Sen. Evan Bayh when the housing crunch would end, Ben dodged that missile in saying that we're in tough times and dealing with it all. A number of the committee members asked Ben softball questions and congratulated him on his actions with BSC and Fannie Freddie as if he did something extraordinary. It would seem that only Bunning gets it, and his fellow members chuckled about his comments stating, "tell us how you really feel" as he shredded Bernanke. I hadn't heard anything from Mel Martinez in years (R-FLA) and didn't even realize he was on the Banking committee. I remember Mel in the news from a few years back when he misplaced $60 BILL while head of HUD. He was of course rewarded for his service by being elected US Senator. Jeb and GW were proud to keep him in the fold....and to get on the banking committee as well! That's where I want guys that lose $60 BILL of taxpayer money. I hear that OJ is helping Mel look for the missing $60 BILL.
I was a bright and energetic economics student once as well being fed the same diet of Keynesian crapola and pure fiat. It would be interesting to go back to 1972-1973 again and here what my profs were saying about fiat/gold at that time. All I remember were anal charts and curves, guns and butter, and that tax cuts could stimulate the economy out of anything. Then again, we were only in the first 2 yrs of the fiat experiment. Today we have the added benefit of 35 more years of outcomes to play with. Move over guns and butter, because fiat, design inflation, otc derivatives, and gold might just make it into the next version of text books.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Why is everyone so unhappy and complaining? Maybe Jay Leno put it best......
>>
Perhaps it's the armed gangs that run the cities rather than learning how to read and write.
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work
four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the
independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so
much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on
the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to
join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in
great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income.
How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar-
ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the
trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long
time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will
be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the
line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting
good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies. >>
And yet many of these people will whine and cry for even more socialism.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I wonder if in the CPI the quality factor of Twinkies has been going up so that the net price falls? With the shrinkage in the packaging the net change is probably about 13X since 1960. And if you factor in the 30% "better tastes" of today, we're back to 10X again. Wait a minute, I forgot the substitutional effects. Since Twinkies are not as affordable at a $1 a package, the consumer will substitute a "Little Debbie" item for half the price. So that drops the price change to 5X. See how little actual inflation there has been since 1960 using the BLS statistical methods? That works out to around the 3%/yr target inflation rate.
roadrunner
Keeps it all nice and simple without the evil statist B/S that has polluted our great land.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
In the olden days, when Uncle Harry had to get a 'SECOND MORTGAGE'.........it was all hush-hush because it denoted that Harry was in trouble.
Nowadays ---the Home Equity Line of Credit is cool. Uncle Harry can brag about his 'creditworthiness' by the amount of his capacity to borrow. And be forever a prisoner of debt. He can borrow a thousand dollars to buy a washer and dryer that flames out after 10 years but can have the pleasure of deducting the interest and pay for it over 30 years. With the AMERICAN consumer being sold this bill of goods, it's no wonder that 'OUR' financial picture looks like it does.
It ain't what you make, it's what you keep.
Furthermore to the poster that challanged anybody to name 3 banks.................There are over 10,000 depositers that have over a hundred grand each in INDYMAC that as of now are uninsured and holding cotton candy. These people could have structured their accounts to BE INSURED but were "GUIDED" by the people of INDIMAC to do it so as to leave these depositors vulnerable. A married couple can insure about $400,000 and another $250,000 in their IRA but have to do it correctly to qualify for FDIC coverage.
<< <i><<<Great answer, a bit off though for contemporary times. Oftentimes now the Fed exerts its policy in less than offical ways...to use a hyperbolic (supremely exaggerated) example, if the Fed decided that a boost in grain sales would help the economy they would have Alan Greenspan say something about the rising popularity of the pancake industry, thus causing an increase in pancake production and thus causing an increase in grain sales.>>>
I love your analogy Tvac, the subtlety of Fed moves can be hard to discern. You get the finer points of market moves, and I suspect Wall Street would be buying up shares in IHOP as well. >>
Thanks, I recommend waffle house though...better distribution.
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 3.5in; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 6"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 5"> </SPAN>New York City, </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">December 17, 1913 </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">"'My Dear Senator Weeks: </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">"'Throughout my public life I have supported all measures designed to take the Government out of the banking business. This bill puts the Government into the banking business as never before in our history. "'The powers vested in the Federal Reserve Board seen to me highly dangerous especially where there is political control of the Board. I should be sorry to hold stock in a bank subject to such dominations. The bill as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency. "'I had hoped to support this bill, but I cannot vote for it cause it seems to me to contain features and to rest upon principles in the highest degree menacing to our prosperity, to stability in business, and to the general welfare of the people of the United States. </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Very Truly Yours, </SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Henry Cabot Lodge.'"</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><o
New York City,
December 17, 1913
"'My Dear Senator Weeks:
"'Throughout my public life I have supported all measures designed to take the Government out of the banking business. This bill puts the Government into the banking business as never before in our history. "'The powers vested in the Federal Reserve Board seen to me highly dangerous especially where there is political control of the Board. I should be sorry to hold stock in a bank subject to such dominations. The bill as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency. "'I had hoped to support this bill, but I cannot vote for it cause it seems to me to contain features and to rest upon principles in the highest degree menacing to our prosperity, to stability in business, and to the general welfare of the people of the United States.
Very Truly Yours,
Henry Cabot Lodge.'"
Maybe it's the already declining standard of living for the young couples who need to work
four or five jobs just to keep up. And still have their house in foreclosure. How about the
independent truck drivers who spend nearly $1000 to fill their tanks. Some barely spent so
much for their rigs. I don't even know how you can squeeze enough of some products on
the truck to pay for the fuel.
How about the dozens of children being murdered every day in the cities to force people to
join gangs while the papers say they are "caught in the crossfire".
How about savers who are paid a measely 2% on their money while inflation eats it up in
great bites and the government nibbles on the 2% they refer to euphimistically as income.
How about the millions paying usurious interest rates.
Certainly things are still pretty good for most Americans but it's becoming increasingly appar-
ent this can't continue. Jay Leno may not need to worry for a good long time but down in the
trenches there is a lot of fear. We've all seen the inequities that have been around for a long
time now and a lot of people fear it's their ox being gored next.
Sure, there's still ample reason for optimism but one has the sense that any improvement will
be mostly channeled to the haves and that young people are going to stay at the back of the
line and conditions can't stay good with so many dropping out of school and so few getting
good educations. We may be eating cake but it's really just twinkies.>>>>>>>
The irony in this statement is just too much to pass up and I'm sure the poster doesn't even see it. Where did the poster get this information....... do you think he is right on the street with the armed gangs? Has he witnessed the murder of DOZENS of children? I seriously doubt it. So where did the information come from? Chances are, he heard it on the news, because as was stated earlier .... if it bleeds, it leads. The media for some reason wants to keep us in a permanent state of anger and outright disgust about what is happening in our society. The point of the article the poster was critisizing is that a great deal of the unhappiness in this country is caused because people listen to the medias relentless stream of bad news.
When the TV says "Warning, contains scenes of... may not be suitable for children" do you think they mean....turn off the TV? No, they are actually saying ...watch this closely we will run it in slo-mo over and over so you can.
People sit on their duffs, watch the news, get in a huff and have no idea why. Then they post on here and say "in the real world"... real world? Come on, give me a break! I agree with Mark and say this thread has no merit anymore. The conspiratists, kooks, and "in the real world" ers have to vent somewhere and this is as good a place as any. Vent away noble informers!
<< <i>Well I am sorry I live in the Eastern Time zone and so went to bed early as far as this thread is concerned. However, even in the bright light of the morning it is hard for me to know how to respond to a thread that starts with the Fed and moves to children being murdered in the streets and Twinkies. I think the Fed is to blame for many things but it is a stretch for me to think of the Fed as being the cause of the tragic death of young people and the existence of Twinkies. In all seriousness, perhaps I am more optimistic than cladking and roadrunner because I see and teach about 5,000 incredibly bright and energetic college students a year. I realize that the young people I see are just one slice of society but it's hard not to retain optimism when dealing with them day in and day out. However, what has the Fed to do with this? Nada and zip.
Anyway, from my perspective, this thread is about played out. I don't see any chance on my part to convince non-believers about the ownership of the Fed much less the Fed's operations. But it was fun and I hope/expect to engage in similar debates in threads yet to born. >>
You misunderstand my point.
I'm not pessimistic and I don't believe the FED directly caused any of this.
At the risk of taking this even farther of topic I think much of the problem that
caused the mess of the 20th century was in 1913 as well. Freud taught the world
that we aren't responsible for our actions as individuals or as members of groups
and it's been downhill ever since.
As I've said many times there is nothing inherantly wrong with fiat currency. Ulti-
mately all money derives it's entire value from the belief of the people. It's much
easier to maintain belief in fiat than in gold because faith in government is much
more stable than gold supplies or peoples' perception of gold supply. The world
has become much too complicated and dependent on the operation of the overall
economy to experience unpredictable and periodic panics caused by currency.
But like all money fiat is suscepible to being debased. It's actually easier when you
can do it right out in the open. The inflation since 913 hasn't been caused by the FED,
it's been caused by Congress.
Allowing gangs and other criminals to roam free is much more an outgrowth of the
idea that they aren't responsible than it is the FED.
There are a lot of bright young people and this is the main reason that I can remain
optimistic in the situation we find ourselves. One does have to worry about the mil-
lions being failed by the schools though. One does have to worry about trends which
are still not going in the right direction and the continuing mentality that everything
is a societal or governmental problem. We continue to turn to government to solve
problems they created.
I agree. These are the same "kooks" that believe in the benign and altruistic FED theory of banking. Hi, we're from the FED and we're to help you. If the kooks would leave their ivory towers, Washington D.C., or 50 story office buildings once in a while, they might really experience what is going on. If the regulators would have regulated, we'd not be in this pickle.
roadrunner
<< <i>If the kooks would leave their ivory towers, Washington D.C., or 50 story office buildings once in a while... >>
I don't know anybody who has ever so much as said "Hello" to any of these people who are "running" this country's economy.
I'm wondering how they might even have the faintest idea what's important to me, my family and my friends. I guess they must be real smart, huh?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>This is a trick question about coins, isn't it ? >>
Don't all coins have "In the Federal Reserve Bank we trust" printed on them?
I have been out of town and have not checked up on this thread until today.
Sems I have a lot of catching up to do. Looking at the number and length of the replies, I suspect that reading through each one and trying to understand each one will take quite a lot of mental energy and time.
Since I started the thread, I guess I should read everything, if for nothing else to avoid considering myself to be a pansy-wimp
When I get through things, I will toss in my two cents worth.
There was a recent thread on this subject. I will try to get a reference to it.
Found it.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=666786&highlight_key=y
Talk about a melting pot of financial institutions and the government.................so we are all being affected and its not because of inflation.
The fed itself is lending and banking like crazy....WTF!
They have no standard anymore.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.