What's wrong with Willie Mays?
Mickey71
Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Did anyone see where Mays gave no hugs, handshakes, or even looked at the current centerfielders as they ran to be at his side during introductions? My opinion to this is "Willie, just let it go." I've heard rumors about Mays' grudge against whites and at times baseball. It has been said that he feels slighted. I don't understand where is the slight. Many people like myself consider him the greatest living player and in the top few all time. He was also given his own stage last night. It just saddens me to see that. My kids were wondering why he didn't acknowledge the 2 centerfielders. I was excited then embarrassed. JMO.
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.............regardless he is the greatest living player currently.
Loth
them about guys like gwynn and ripken!
Kevin
<< <i>bitter old man indeed, but when my kids ask me about the greats ill tell
them about guys like gwynn and ripken!
Kevin >>
What? And leave out Ryan Howard?
Im thinking the guy just cannot stand the ridiculas salaries that these "All-Stars" command, and holds a grudge- to be 100% honest so would I.
Bosox1976
Anyway... Willie Mays was not even the best player at his position during his own generation. That title clearly belonged to Mickey Mantle. I will concede that Mays played much longer, and that it helps his career value. But their top ten to twelve years when they were both in their prime, Mantle is/was hands down better than Willie Mays. It is just too bad Mantle's knees got the best of him in his early/mid 30's.
As for last night, I could have sworn I saw Mays talking to f...u k odome. Maybe he was asking him, "how the heck did you get on this team?" He didn't give Josh Hamilton even a look. At first I thought maybe it was because of Hamilton's history...but I am not sure Mays is even aware of that...maybe though.
The funny thing about the all around player, is that before the Mick hurt his knees, he was faster than Willie Mays.
Too bad. Whatever the reason for his negative attitude, it primarily makes life bad for him. An attitude adjustment on his part would make him adored, celebrated and revered more than he already is.
Some people just prefer being angry and negative.
was it just the knees or the alcohol?
I wonder what Mantle's numbers would've been if he played at Candlestick all those years ?
Mays led the league in homeruns 3 times playing in a stadium that was known for the wind blowing in from left
Dave
<< <i>i]Anyway... Willie Mays was not even the best player at his position during his own generation. That title clearly belonged to Mickey Mantle. I will concede that Mays played much longer, and that it helps his career value. But their top ten to twelve years when they were both in their prime, Mantle is/was hands down better than Willie Mays. It is just too bad Mantle's knees got the best of him in his early/mid 30's
I wonder what Mantle's numbers would've been if he played at Candlestick all those years ?
Mays led the league in homeruns 3 times playing in a stadium that was known for the wind blowing in from left
Dave >>
If you wonder anything, wonder what William's numbers would of been if he hadn't gone off to war twice!
JS
Couldn't agree with you more
<< <i>If you wonder anything, wonder what William's numbers would of been if he hadn't gone off to war twice!
Couldn't agree with you more >>
Agreed 100%
As far as what I meant by "All Around" player I meant Hitting, Power, Defense and Basestealing- Mays is my choice and I completely respect anyone saying Mantle but no way do I believe that its a hands down or not even close argument.
<< <i>
I wonder what Mantle's numbers would've been if he played at Candlestick all those years ?
Mays led the league in homeruns 3 times playing in a stadium that was known for the wind blowing in from left
Dave >>
Mays had 335 lifetime Home Runs at Home, and 325 on the road. The wind must not have been much of a factor.
Perk, hands down is a little overboard
<< <i>
Perk, hands down is a little overboard
And I completely respect that Skin!
These are my top 4 all time players:
1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Williams
4. Mays
#5 is a blanket among around 8 - 10 players...very tough to choose #5 in my opinion.
Really ?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you believe playing half his games all those years batting righty in Candlestick didn't have a factor on his home run totals ?
<< <i>What's wrong with Willie Mays? >>
Did he ever play for the Phillies? No?
I guess he should have.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Now let's get on with the regular season............
These guys are ridiculous..no, they don't make the money these young kids do, but they've lived a very good life that few of us will ever get to experience. I'm sorry Willie, Joe, exactly what 40 hour a week jobs did you 2 have to work through after you got out of baseball? What's that, baseball and your fame have taken care of you and your families your entire lives? Time to repay that just a bit and show up and be happy to be there.
I said it wasn't much of a factor(and could have possibly reduced a handful of extra home runs, but then also added other positive offensive events though)! Mays wasn't really hurt by his home park like other players in history truly have been.
Here are Mays's home ballpark factors. 100 represents a league average park for producing runs/hitting. Anything below 100 represents a tougher park to score/hit. Anything over 100 represents an easier park to score/hit.
101
101
102
107
99
91
101
99
96
90
99
102
95
101
110
100
102
98
103
96
101
That is 12 years as average or above average hitter park, and nine years below. Not much of a factor.
How did Yankee stadium play to scoring runs? Here are the park factors during Mantle's years...
92
98
93
99
98
99
94
102
92
94
97
95
101
103
100
94
91
100
One can do the math and average them if they wish to see that Yankee stadium supressed runs/hitting more than the Polo or Stick.
Players typically do a bit better at home, and one can expect Home hitting to be slightly better than road. So a guy can have equal stats at home and on the road, and still be supressed by his home park.
Looking at Mays's home parks and how they were prettty neutral, and looking at his actual home/road stats and seeing how they were fairly neutral as well, I would conclude that his home parks didn't play much of an unfair factor in suprressing/enhancing his performance, wind or no wind.
<< <i>Anyway... Willie Mays was not even the best player at his position during his own generation. That title clearly belonged to Mickey Mantle. I will concede that Mays played much longer, and that it helps his career value. But their top ten to twelve years when they were both in their prime, Mantle is/was hands down better than Willie Mays. It is just too bad Mantle's knees got the best of him in his early/mid 30's
I wonder what Mantle's numbers would've been if he played at Candlestick all those years ?
Mays led the league in homeruns 3 times playing in a stadium that was known for the wind blowing in from left
Dave >>
Not knocking Aaron, but Mays would have had 800+ home runs if he played in Atlanta instead of Candlestick.
<< <i>What's wrong with Willie Mays? >>
I saw that as well and told my wife, "Wow, look Willie Mays is totally blowing that guy off! " I don't want to speculate what motivated Willie to be like that or if he was in the middle of something else?? I dunno...Maybe he had just been asked, how's your god son Bobby been doing lately.lol Either way, Willie didn't look focused on what was going on.
<< <i>
Not knocking Aaron, but Mays would have had 800+ home runs if he played in Atlanta instead of Candlestick. >>
I am pretty sure every slugger who played in a neutral hitting park would have seen a nice increase in HR had they played their careers in Atlanta. Sure, Willie would have hit more, as would have Mantle. I think there are a lot of sluggers who would have like to have that benefit. Luckily, this aspect can be factored into a players true ability and we can measure his ability, and not what was inflated by a home park.
As it stands now, during Mays's career while he played at Candlestick, he actually had one more HR at Candlestick than on the road in all those years he played there. Candlestick was pretty neutral compared to the average park. Mays's home park does not really hurt or enhance what his non park adjusted numbers already say.
Willie Mays led the league in home runs three times while playing half his games here, but since the wind blew in from left field, many people think Mays would have hit 800 homers if he’d played somewhere else. Lefthanded hitters, on the other hand, get the benefit of the jetstream to right.
Mays himself once declared that he lost 200 home runs due to the Stick - "I bet I lost 200 home runs in that place. The wind would just come in and knock them down. You'd think they were gone and then the ball just dropped," he told the Seattle Times' Les Carpenter in 1999
Perhaps the most hated ballpark in baseball - Keith Hernandez once negotiated a clause with his New York Mets that forbade them from trading him to San Francisco, and in a 1983 poll of major league players, Candlestick was voted as the worst ballpark in the majors - the Stick was nevertheless a baseball icon.
There was nothing like it in baseball - the peaceful little stadium would fill with papers spinning cyclones in the air; swirling dust clouds would dance across the infield like ghosts before skipping back into the sky and obscuring the sun. And cold? The game time temperature would frequently drop into the mid 50s, with a wind chill in the low 30s. Yes, indeed, there was a certain San Francisco charm to the park. Still, the first big league baseball field in the West always drew complaints.
Did you read the info I posted above?
In his time at Candlestick, he actually hit one more HR there, than his road totals.
Orlando Cepeda hit equal HR's at home and on the Road in his time there.
Alou hit one more HR at the Stick, comapred to the road in his time there.
Those are all Right Handed hitters. Obvioiusly the wind blew out as well, or that the wind blowing in didn't necessarily make it impossible to hit HR.
If 'this guy' had the perception that Mays would have added an extra 140 HR, giving him 140 more HR at home, than on the road...making that the largest Home/ROad HR split in the history of baseball....bettering Mel Ott's difference of 135 Home/ROad split due to the short line at the Polo Grounds,
And knowing that the other prime RH hitters at the Stick saw similar results to Mays, I must ask...
Were these magic beans? Did he buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?
And Mays declaring he lost 200?!?!? I think Mays's case is a matter of ego, as opposed to reality...and we can all see what goes through Mays's head already.
Mays, and his fans, need to come to the realization that his home park actually INCREASED his offense during the era he played(relative to the other parks). That is highlihgted by the ballpark factor above.
Kobe, blind worship...come on now.
And personally i don't see how his hr totals at other parks have to do with my point that hitting at Candlestick hurt his hr #'s . Were not talking about Wrigley Field here where the wind blows both in and out, Candlestick was KNOWN for the winds blowing in from left.
Also i'd be interested to see how far the left field fence in Candlestick was as opposed to the right field fence at Yankee Stadium
Dave
Edited : found my answer . . 330 @ Candlestick
295 @ Yankee Stadium
If common sense is something you prefer to use, then why would all these guys have similar HR totals at the Stick, when compared to all other parks? If you don't understnad why comparing their totals to the other parks in the league is important, then this conversation probably isn't for you.
Obvioiusly, if it were 10 degrees and the wind was blowing in 30 miles an hour every game, then it would have an effect, and the effect would be that you would see a dramatic drop in Home Runs hit at Candlestick, compared to when the SAME guys play at other parks. BUT YOU DO NOT SEE THAT DROP!!
You mentioned Keith Hernandez and a 1983 poll. That is blah, and does nothing for your point. From 1983-1987, Candlestick park had 684 Home Runs hit in it. All these EXACT same players hit 648 Home Runs when they played each other in other parks. Obviously, Candlestick was one of the easier parks to hit Home Runs, not harder...otherwise these players wouldn't be hitting more HR there!!!
You are overstating how cold it actually was, and how often and how hard the wind really was blowing in.
Finally, you are saying that Willie Mays playing at Candlestick cost him 200 Home Runs. Cost home 200 home runs, as opposed to playing where else?? Are you saying as opposed to Yankee Stadium? Dodger Stadium? The AstroDome? Comiskey? Those four stadiums were all harder for RH hitters to hit HR!
Are you saying in general? What would that mean? Yeah, had he played his home games at a Pony League field, sure. But then every other MLB player would ahve that advantage.
The bottom line is, his home parks did not supress his offense. Being that his home stadium was fairly netural offensively, you can figure that had he played his home games in a different park...half the parks in the league would have allowed him to hit more HR, and the other half would have had him hit LESS! Yankee Stadium would have been a death knell for his HR.
This is why you adjust downward for players like Jim Rice, Todd Helton, Ryne Sandberg, etc...because they had the benefit of playing at parks that artificially increased their offensive totals.
This is why you adjust upwards for players like Reggie Jackson, 1970's Asto players, 2008 San Diego players...because they play in parks that are more difficult to produce offense...than what the average player has to face.
In Willie May's case, he played in neither a hard park, or easy park, and his offensive totals where they currently sit, are pretty much telling the reality. If your case was that had he played his career in Coors field, then that is different. But all that would mean is that when he did hit 800 HR, you would take into account that a good amount are the result of the Park factor, and then adjust downward.
Please read the above post I made first, as it explains the things rather easily, and gives the truths to the untruths that were presented.
I would also like to point out that your quote you used about Willie Saying that he "lost 200 HR", that you neglected to leave out one of the following sentences...you know, the part where that paragraph goes on to say that "that was probably just whining." And that it goes on to show the info I just showed about how he hit more at the Stick than on the road.
You are also concerned about the distance down the line, but also neglected the key area of the park where distance comes into play the most for Home Runs, LEFT CENTER! Candlestick moved their Left Center fence to a mere 365 feet in 1961. That is actually shorter than Wrigley Field, and that is probably what negates the wind and cold factor you seem to be harping on....you know THE FACTOR THAT REALLY WASN"T A FACTOR!
Because had it been a factor, there would have been LESS HR hit at the stick, NOT MORE! With a measley 365 to the power alleys, it is no wonder!
Again, Willie playing at Candlestic cost him nada. It is explained a little more above. I just thought I would post how you conveniently left out the parts that you quoted.
BASEBALL- Dimaggio was one of the most penalized by his home park, for playing in Yankee stadium. That vast alley cost him. He hit 148 HR at home, and 213 on the road. Yankee Stadium supressed scoring, contrary to popular belief. Oh, and Kobe...did you know that Mantle also batted Right Handed?
You were GREAT Willie! Too bad you are such a horses rear end ....... in the end.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Joe D. was hampered by Yankee stadium.
Mays had more lifetime HR at home than on the road. His parks at most may have cost him 10-12 HR for his entire career, as compared to the league average park. Compared to Coors, then that is a different story.
This hogwash about 150-200 is absolute pure fantasy...as outlined above.
That being said, HR are only one offensive measure. A park can reduce HR, but still be a benefit to a hitter. Kansas City was hard to hit HR's in, but it was an absolute haven for doubles and triples!
Fenway wasn't a great increaser of HR, but it turned more fly ball outs into doubles, than any other park. A fly ball out turning into a double does wonders for one's hitting stats.
The bottom line, as outlined well above with the park factors...Mays did not have home parks that hindered his offensive production.
And, Mays is a dork. :-)
<< <i>
That being said, HR are only one offensive measure. A park can reduce HR, but still be a benefit to a hitter. Kansas City was hard to hit HR's in, but it was an absolute haven for doubles and triples!
. >>
Could you explain why KC was a haven for doubles and triples when it had the same astroturf and same ballpark configuration as
the Vet, Pirates Stadium, and many other turf surfaces like St. Louis, Cincinnati, or Montreal.
Why did astroturf increae doubles and triples? Simple. Hard singles got past the outfielders more easily due to the bounce of the astroturf.
Everybody mistakingly called the Metrodome the Homer dome, when it really should have been called the "DOUBLE" dome.
The Kingdome was one of the parks that actually decreased triples...and that is due to the short porch in RF(obvious implications).
The rest of the astrotuf fields all saw increases in doubles and triples to varying degree(due to other ballpark intracicies).
Turf parks typically held the top 10 of 12 spots or so in the effect on doubles and triples. You would get a Fenway in there that was a doubles haven, and Wrigley may have climbed into the effect on triples rankings(due to the deep RF line). But turf parks dominated in this area.
This is 70's/80's timeline of course.