1909 VDB Matte Proof

JoeTheCoinMan

Does anyone know of any diagnostics for determining whether a 1909 VDB is a matte proof or not (besides it having a matte finish)?

guitarwes

On the reverse, there is a small die chip between the M the tip of the right wheat stalk. There are various die polish lines on the Obv. also in front and behind Lincoln. That's all I can remember right off hand. There has been multiple threads about it with great pictures. Try the search tab thingy.

-wes

Shamika

<< <i>Does anyone know of any diagnostics for determining whether a 1909 VDB is a matte proof or not (besides it having a matte finish)? >>

The diagnostic is usually written on the slab. If you see the letters "PR", it's a proof.

drwstr123

diagonal die polish lines infront of nose-die polish line from shoulder to R in LIBERTY

JoeTheCoinMan

Do the pictures below of the coin on Ebay look like a matte proof?

Shamika

The rims suggest a business strike despite the fields having a matte appearance. Given that many 1909 VDB's have exceptional strike, this appears to be just a plain old business strike (although beautiful none the less).

EagleEye

Check first - wide rims (area on face of coin between field and edge) . It should have a very squared "Proof" edge (you can't tell here). No collar striations.
Next - look at the area between the portrait and rim, also letters and rim. It should be extra wide - very noticeable.
When you get it in hand look for the die markers.

The coin in question is not a Proof.

commoncents05

Helpful link.

-Paul

JoeTheCoinMan

Is it possible for a business strike 1909 VDB to have this great of a matte finish?

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Is it possible for a business strike 1909 VDB to have this great of a matte finish without being a proof? >>

If it's a business strike, it is by definition not a proof.

JoeTheCoinMan

<< <i>

<< <i>Is it possible for a business strike 1909 VDB to have this great of a matte finish without being a proof? >>

If it's a business strike, it is by definition not a proof. >>



I corrected it, thanks for pointing that out.

ambro51

The surface on a matte proof is composed of millions of tiny raised granuals caused by the sand blasting of the die. Worn out business strike dies can also give an irregular look, but not at all like a matte. There are areas which look matte, while other areas are smooth. A real MPL is evenly granulated, or evenly satin. They can have different finished obverse/reverse. Notice also the 'strike wear' (or whatever you call it) that the coat of abe shows onto the reverse, as an inverted large V shape, on the ONE CENT area.

The rims too round off in some areas, a matte will have perfect concentric rims that are square and equal all the way around.

It is a nice VDB though....looks like a 65 or maybe 66

Steve

<< <i>Is it possible for a business strike 1909 VDB to have this great of a matte finish without being a proof? >>



Joseph,
The short answer is that when a business strike coin is worth less than $100 and a proof strike coin is worth at least $5,000, the hobby puts lots of factors into determining the accepted version. In this case, besides the usual, normal expectations of a Matte Proof Lincoln cent which includes strong strike, sharp, square rims which are brilliant, the coin must also have the three key diagnostics which you can see excellent pictures of in the other thread. Also, for practical purposes, the VDB Matte proof needs to be slabbed by PCGS or NGC in order to be accepted by a potential buyer at the proof value. There are plenty of non proof RAW VDB's out there being offered to uninformed collectors as the real thing. Good luck. JMHO. Steve

Prooflincolndie2

I have found the answers to the discrepancy in the mintage for the 1909 vdb Matte Proof

Prooflincolndie2

I have also proof that there 3 types and 2 finishes!!! And they have been sold as MS or Business strikes for the last 100+ years!

Have located, and have a sample of each! I don’t know how to load pictures, I will provide reference material to provide the coin community with this information.

But most importantly the grading companys!!

These coins are being sold on eBay now. I have purchased 15 in the last 5 years.

There’s 1 on eBay now!

Eldorado9

Just FYI, Here is a non VDB Proof, PF-66 RB

lusterlover

Where is popcorn-eating emoji or holding breath emoji...

@Prooflincolndie2 , you can't make a serious claim and then disappear without any evidence, especially after reposting a 13 year old thread....

robec

@lusterlover said:
Where is popcorn-eating emoji or holding breath emoji...

@Prooflincolndie2 , you can't make a serious claim and then disappear without any evidence, especially after reposting a 13 year old thread....

He was only here 6 hours. Most of his rambling was done on his own thread of wishful thinking, but it was zapped.

MsMorrisine

MJPHELAN

Looks like he has listed a "proof" on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234539516215?hash=item369ba50137:g:YL0AAOSw61hibzuV

JBK

That seller is beyond absurd. He is selling a siabbed MS coin as a proof.

Oldhoopster

His description in the listing gives a new definition to the term "Rambling".

JBK

In his listing he has a picture of a bag of potatoes marked "onions", and his point is that a label does not change what is inside. Hence, the MS cent is really a proof.

He is trying very hard to sell his delusion to people.

I can't say what I really think about this person for fear of getting banned.

robec

He says all markers are present but fails to show one, even with 10 photos posted.

I’d like to see if the dot between the D and B is centered or at least one clear diagnostic like the crescent shaped die gouge on the reverse, the die scratches in front of the nose, the die scratch radiating from the shoulder toward LIBERTY or the short curved die scratch at the top right side of the B in LIBERTY.

I find it hard to believe he has looked through 15,000 VDB’s and thought it unnecessary to post a photo proving this coin is indeed a proof and not the MS the label says it is.

Edited: I see the 15,000 was hours not coins. This makes it even worse. If he’s looked at almost 1million VDB’s he should know how important it is to show the diagnostics. Besides, why doesn’t he send the coin in to one of the grading companies?

FlyingAl

It seems he guarantees that this coin will grade proof at any service of your choosing.

I also find it doubtful that he’s looked at 1 million VDBs and found more matte proofs than have been certified by the grading companies.

Moose1913

@Oldhoopster said:
His description in the listing gives a new definition to the term "Rambling".

The bag labeled onions does it mean an ear of corn is an onion. Just because a slab or holder is label MS Mint state (business strike) does it mean it’s not a PR Proof.

numisma

The real question is whether or not the winning bidder gets the bags of corn cobs shown in the listing. I mean, with the price of food rising quickly, along with pending food shortages, this auction may not be such a bad deal.

MonsterCoinz

I report every one of these and eBay doesn't seem to care.

LanceNewmanOCC

@mach1ne said:
I report every one of these and eBay doesn't seem to care.

..
there are a few reporting choices. if you are doing it, not getting reasonable results, switch up what ya choose?

i think there are at least 3 legit chains of choices, probably a few more if you get liberal. so long as your reporting is to get the item removed, just about any reason is good enough. imo

scam is scam, fake is fake. ebay has strict policies because of how rife the marketplaces are with just plain junk. (i understand not all of the people listings this junk are murdering rampaging idiots, some probably do it to make a few bucks but there must be rules and lines however poor or well we draw and enforce them. (or well ebay in this case)

to those that have the strength and energy, more power to ya. i love a safe marketplace however little or lot i may frequent.