Coping with the stigma of the Swastika

Cladiator

I am and always have been oddly fascinated with the second world war, it's participants, it's causes, it's consequences, etc... People say it was our (American) "finest generation" and I believe that to be very close to true if not completely true. It was also, unquestionably, the "worst generation" for other civilizations. Everything about it intrigues me to no end.

I've off and on collected coins from the major participants of the war that were produced during, immediately prior and immediately after the war. This I find as interesting and fun as the study of the event itself.

I have only a few coins from the 3rd Reich but have come across the situation of people seeing my coins and being instantaneously judgemental about the collecting of Nazi items more than a few times. It's gotten to the point that I hide my collecting of these coins. Many of the people I've come into contact with simply refuse to see the reason behind collecting them that I do. They are very quick to assume that I am sympathetic to the Nazi's simply because I collect their coinage (which couldn't be farther from the truth). I feel as if I have a stigma attached when people find out about the collection, a stigma that could possibly prove damaging in some areas of life. People like to talk and people like to spread rumor and people like to exaggerate about all kinds of things and benign facts can rapidly transform into malicious rumors.

I know...people are stupid and who cares what they think. In real life though it's just not that cut and dry.

So I ask you folks that do and/or have collected swastika marked coinage how you have dealt with this and what were the results of your efforts? I really like my coins and enjoy sharing them with friends and family. Sharing a coin is a good portion of the enjoyment I get from numsimatics and I hate to think I have to collect these particular coins in secret.

Blackhawk

While my mother lost family in Europe during WWII, I'm a realist that chooses not to ignore this part of world history simply because it's abhorent. While I think that you have to be aware that there may be people that someone with any common sense would not show these coins to, I think that it would be a great loss if we deny that the third reich ever existed.

bidask

I like german coins leading up to and including the big WWII.

Preussen

Interesting post. I collect coins of the German 3rd Reich and I'll make no apologies to anyone about it. I collect coins primarily because I’m interested in history, and I’m very interested in military history. While many 3rd Reich coins are common as dirt in circulated grades, some are very scarce, if not rare. I have one piece that I’m told is probably unique in Proof.

I have a complete 3rd Reich type set and I’m just a few pieces short of having all types in both BU and Proof. Along with the regular issue types, my set includes the commemoratives, Reichskreditkassen and post-war occupation pieces. I also collect the 2 & 5 Marks by date and mint. I need only one more piece to complete this set, and I need to upgrade just a few to have a fully BU set.

Completing these sets is a real collecting challenge, and I’m proud of my accomplishments. There have been a couple of discussions / disagreements even on this forum about this “controversial” theme, but I’ve never been made aware of anyone truly offended by them. I’ve never been particularly concerned with gaining the approval of others, so if someone really doesn’t like my collection, I can live with it. With that said, I don’t show my coins to many people, but I believe that most people who have seen the 3rd Reich pieces have found them interesting. Contrary to the belief of many, these coins are openly bought and sold in Germany, and many of mine came from German dealers and auctions. -Preussen

Edited for spelling.

harasha

I was putting together a type collection of world crowns, some years back. One piece that I felt to be essential was one from the Third Reich. On the other hand, I could not bear to have a swastika in my home. I finally obtained a 5 Mark piece from 1936.
That being said, this is my own feeling about what I collect. I find nothing objectionable about people collecting Third Reich material, including coins, unless there is a motive other than the collecting.
Personally, I would think a collection of Third Reich numismatics to be fascinating. I just would not do it myself.
We need collections such as Preussen's or our hobby would suffer an irreparable loss.

IloiloKano

Though I have not dealt with that particular situation, I have indeed endured intoleration from those who will not tolerate what they ascibe to me as a lack of tolerance, as well as being called a fascist in order to force me to adopt their own world view or remain silent. So I can certainly sympathize.

It's ironic that those very same people would have been the first to be enthralled by Hitler's charisma, were they living in that area during that time, since all that meant was following the crowd. And they don't seem to have a clue how anyone could possibly have a differing point of view, especially when everybody knows they are right.

I've learned to deal with it.

Kurt4

I own a few and view them as pieces of history. When I've shown them to people, some are interested some think it's disgusting. A couple have asked why I would have those. I tell them that I like history and these coins make that horrible time more tangible. I asked them if they think it's okay to collect U.S. coins from when slavery was legal? What about Russian coins from the time of Stalin? He killed tens of millions of his own people. There are many more examples. Also, I like to point out that there are many people in the world today that view symbols of the U.S. with just as much hatred and disgust.

Edited to add:A little history

cacheman

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." This includes the people that insist that such information should be swept under the rug.

I'm not a skinhead but I still collect medals and patterns of the Sheissekopf...


Opus 578 ADOLPH HITLER, The Führer of the Third Reich. 1940, Cast Bronze, 139.1mm, 630gm, Incuse edge punch KGoetz, RR

Reverse depicts the succession from the First Reich under Otto the Great, (Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire) to Emperor Wilhelm I in 1871 of the Second Reich, to Hitler and his Third Reich.

The sheer size of this medallion makes it an imposing piece, however, the obverse subject matter makes it even more imposing. This is a beautiful piece "as cast" by Karl Goetz.

SaorAlba

Let us not forget that the swastika was hijacked by the Nazis, it was used for hundreds of years before by the Native American people, and also in Sanskrit culture in India and SW Asia. It was regarded as a good luck symbol, even in the USA prior to the rise of the Nazis in the 1920-30s.

Preussen

Another beautiful medal, cacheman

Here are some of my 3rd Reich favorites. -Preussen

Cladiator

Good God Preussen!

That 1933/34 2Rm is friggin' outstanding! Tell me more?

BillyKingsley

I have a 1935 50 Reichpfennig-that's aluminum, isn't it?

I have several, in fact, behind the USA and Canada, Germany is the only country that I have more then 10 coins from in that I have 13. One is from 1897, one from 1935 (but bears no swastika of cource) and one is from 1950. The rest all are from that time frame, with swastikas, and I also have 5 Zinc coins that the Nazis issued for other countries.

I believe they may have been brought home by my grandfather, who served in France, but none of the coins are French. Some that were with them dated to the 1800s to the 1950s so I don't know for sure.

I was going to quote "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it" but I didn't get here in time to. The fact of the matter is, it IS part of history, and it DID happen.

I view it as a tribute to those who fought-and those who died-that all coins DON'T have them today.

deadmunny

<<Let us not forget that the swastika was hijacked by the Nazis, it was used for hundreds of years before by the Native American people, and also in Sanskrit culture in India and SW Asia. It was regarded as a good luck symbol, even in the USA prior to the rise of the Nazis in the 1920-30s.>>

That is mostly correct. The way to tell the difference is the ends of the cross, bent toward the left are cultural, where the Nazi symbol has the ends bent toward the right (or clockwise).

bidask

<< <i>Another beautiful medal, cacheman

Here are some of my 3rd Reich favorites. -Preussen







>>

WOWZER!

JimK

Awesome looking coins Preussen, feel free to share some more!
Jim

BigAlan

it was used for hundreds of years before by the Native American people,

There was a New Mexico National Guard uniit that has a swastika on its patch until WW II (or WW phase II)

History is history. Do you also exclude France under Napoleon or the Roman Empire? Meither had a record to be proud of.

Preussen

<< <i>Good God Preussen!

That 1933/34 2Rm is friggin' outstanding! Tell me more? >>

Thanks . I bought it raw from Karl Stephens a few years ago & PCGS slabbed it PR64. I actually got a higher grade piece a while back but I sold it because I like this one better -Preussen

Preussen

<< <i>I have a 1935 50 Reichpfennig-that's aluminum, isn't it? >>

Yes, aluminum. This is the piece I mentioned in my first post in this thread. It is not supposed to exist in Proof, but here it is. Several German dealers have said it might well be unique in Proof.

Thanks, everyone for the nice comments on my coins. I don't have a lot of pics from my collection, but I'll see if I can find any more. -Preussen

Edited for spelling

bidask

Here's a couple pre Nazi,

Preussen

<< <i>Here's a couple pre Nazi, >>

Nice coins . The 5 Mark Hindenburg is from the 3rd Reich; the swastika was added to the 5M in 1936. The 3M is from "pre nazi" Weimar Republic -Preussen

ColinCMR

the mixed reaction to Nazi material is a legacy of the war, and is an interesting aspect of people's senses of history

however, it is sad that there are those who can construe things into rumors about coin collecting/studying.

coinrookie

I have a WWII collection that includes several coins with a swastika on them. The collection would not be complete without them. These coins can at times raise the hair on the back of my neck when I remember some of the horrible actions that ocurred during the war. I also am a student of history especially WWII and it these coins are a part of that history. You can be interested in the history without supporting the actions that took place.

johnsim03

This situation is similar to the one facing wargamers.

If I enjoy playing wargames, do I love war?

No, not war - military history, military strategy, what-if scenarios perhaps, or maybe even competition.

If I collect Nazi coins, does that make me a Nazi, or a supporter of Nazi's?

No, of course not, it is a ridiculous stretch of logic.

History is history... An interest in it does not make you an active or passive participant.

John

Bailathacl

It's such a hot-button topic, and so difficult to explain to people who don't already "get it" that, without more, having Nazi-era coins in your collection does not speak badly of you. I can't think of any way to mitigate the risk of offending those who don't get it. A disclaimer on top of each 2x2 seems excessive....

covers

Subject is somewhat analagous to people collecting stamps of the Confederate States. To some, there is still a stigma attached that makes it "politically incorrect" to collect anything that smacks of slavery or racism.

IstilllikeZARcoins

The first time I took one home my wife said that she didn't want it in the house.

ajaan

Is it still illegal to sell coins with a swastika on it in Germany?

Preussen

<< <i>Is it still illegal to sell coins with a swastika on it in Germany? >>

Contrary to the belief of many, these coins are openly bought and sold in Germany, and many of mine came from German dealers and auctions. -Preussen

OzzyAndy

It was 3rd Reich coins that got me interested in coin collecting in the first place. When I saw one while browsing on ebay, I just though 'Wow, I've gotta have that' and it started from there. I managed to collect a full date/mintmark set for all of the circulating coins (basicly everything except the military coinage, patterns and allied occ) a few years back and it still stands as the only complete collection I have, probably because it is the only German era that it is not too difficult to obtain every date/mintmark of every coin at a reasonable price. I don't worry too much about grades, but obviously are after the best possible and am constantly upgrading bits of it.

As for the stigma, well I collect for myself and don't really go telling many (non-numismatic) people about it, don't know if they'd understand. Probably the shock value is part of the appeal but like others have said, I don't think what the nazi's did is anything new, just that it was done on a larger scale and more documented due to the technology.

Andrew

Cladiator

<< <i>

<< <i>Is it still illegal to sell coins with a swastika on it in Germany? >>

Contrary to the belief of many, these coins are openly bought and sold in Germany, and many of mine came from German dealers and auctions. -Preussen >>

Is it done and just overlooked by authorities but still illegal or is it specifically not illegal anymore?

Preussen

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Is it still illegal to sell coins with a swastika on it in Germany? >>

Contrary to the belief of many, these coins are openly bought and sold in Germany, and many of mine came from German dealers and auctions. -Preussen >>

Is it done and just overlooked by authorities but still illegal or is it specifically not illegal anymore? >>

Perfectly legal. Some "Nazi" items might be (or might have been in the past) prohibited, but the coins (if they were ever illegal) are not now. -Preussen

BillyKingsley

I'd love to get one of the Graf Zeppelin commeratives. I'm fascinated with dirigibles, airships, blimps and even to a lesser extent hot air baloons.

That's one of the coins that I know someday I WILL have one in my collection-just have to find one that I can afford, first.

shirohniichan

I have some coins from the Nazi era, and I also have Japanese coins from the fascist era. I do not approve of either's policies. I'd like to get a silver coin (perhaps a denarius) from Nero's reign also, but he ranks right down there with Hitler and Stalin in my book of tyrants.

Some day I'd like to shoot a 98K Mauser or a G43, but that wouldn't make me a nazi sympathizer, either.

Bjorn

<< <i>I have some coins from the Nazi era, and I also have Japanese coins from the fascist era. I do not approve of either's policies. I'd like to get a silver coin (perhaps a denarius) from Nero's reign also, but he ranks right down there with Hitler and Stalin in my book of tyrants.

Some day I'd like to shoot a 98K Mauser or a G43, but that wouldn't make me a nazi sympathizer, either. >>



I've shot the 98Gew, but thats more Kaisserreich I suppose... the kick isn't so bad but it has a report to nearly match a shotgun!

Udo

I only have a small type set of Third Reich coins and I never came across such a situation where people say: "You collect Nazi coins, how dare you?"

As stated above, these coins are openly bought and sold in Germany.

We see them offered on the bourse floor in the coin dealer's list or at auctions. Coins usually bear the national emblem of the issuing state and in that era some coins had the swastika on it.

So for whatever reason we collect these coins, be it to have a complete type set from a certain time period or to have a date and mintmark set ... or ...or

Who cares? Coin collectors usually collect what they like or what they are interested in without a politically motivated credo.


But one might encounter some problems when selling or sharing pics of these items in Germany.
Yes, we have a law for almost every situation here.


This is the suitable Section from our criminal code:



Section 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations
(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in Section 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.

(3) Section 86 subsections (3) and (4), shall apply accordingly.




There have been several lawsuits against people which were just selling said coins on ebay and had a pic of the coin in their auction without the swastika covered. All what was needed was to tell the police and some overeager attorney to get the seller in trouble. As far as I know all accused were found to be not guilty. However they had time consuming trials and had to pay their lawyer fees.


Most auction houses have a disclaimer in their catalog, to prevent trouble, like this:




The owner of this catalog, bidders and participants of this auction confirm that this catalog and the included contemporary and military items from 1933 to 1945 are only used for civic enlightenment, for defense of unconstitutional ambitions, for academic and historic research or for coverage and education about the events of the day from 1933 to 1945.

The seller does offer these items under this premise. With bidding on items which bear emblems of the third Reich, the bidder assures to only buy these items for the above mentioned purpose and not to use them for propagandistic purpose in terms of the section 86, 86a criminal code.

Cladiator

The latest addition to my 3rd R. set. Just came in today, got it on eBay for less than a coke & burger at McDonalds.

Preussen

<< <i>The latest addition to my 3rd R. set. >>

-Preussen

ColinCMR

It seems the PCGS forum doesn't mind displaying coins with a swastika on it, i cite this as precedent, so no trouble here

BigAlan

Some day I'd like to shoot a 98K Mauser or a G43

I used to have several 98 Mausers, they sold for $30 or so. Its a nice eound but a 30-06 is better.

shirohniichan

<< <i>Some day I'd like to shoot a 98K Mauser or a G43

I used to have several 98 Mausers, they sold for $30 or so. Its a nice eound but a 30-06 is better. >>



I'll buy them from you for $40 each so you can make a profit.

I've shot my brother's Garands before, but never an '03 Springfield. I don't have much money for firearms any more, but maybe that will change in 20 years when both of my kids are out of college. Then again, firearms will probably be illegal by then.

BigAlan

I'll buy them from you for $40 each so you can make a profit.

I've shot my brother's Garands before, but never an '03 Springfield.


I had an 88, a 93 and several 98s but they're all gone. My dad said that when the Marine Corps got rid of the 03 Springfields he could have bought a carload for $10 each.