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1909VDB MATTE PROOF LINCOLN AT BALTIMORE ANA
Steve
Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭
Well, here we go again. Another prized Matte Proof 1909VDB Lincoln cent will be up for auction on July 31st at the ANA convention in Baltimore. This one is in a PCGS slab and is graded PR64RB. Here is a LINK
This coin is always in high demand because of the fact that less than 200 are believed to currently remain in existence with VERY few of those available in the market for sale. Unlike almost any other Lincoln business strike and proof coin, dealers just don't have them for sale. I would estimate that just about all of these coins are in the hands of collectors and in todays market if that collector is ready to sell, the coin will be sold via auction or private treaty. The coin MUST exhibit three key diagnostics in order to be accepted by the hobby. That is why any RAW example that shows up needs to be slabbed by either PCGS or NGC.
Good luck to anyone here who is going after this one. It is a five figure coin already. I wonder if we will EVER see another 09VDB MPL in a PCGS or NGC slab sell for under $10,000?
Steve
This coin is always in high demand because of the fact that less than 200 are believed to currently remain in existence with VERY few of those available in the market for sale. Unlike almost any other Lincoln business strike and proof coin, dealers just don't have them for sale. I would estimate that just about all of these coins are in the hands of collectors and in todays market if that collector is ready to sell, the coin will be sold via auction or private treaty. The coin MUST exhibit three key diagnostics in order to be accepted by the hobby. That is why any RAW example that shows up needs to be slabbed by either PCGS or NGC.
Good luck to anyone here who is going after this one. It is a five figure coin already. I wonder if we will EVER see another 09VDB MPL in a PCGS or NGC slab sell for under $10,000?
Steve
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Gonna cost at least $20,700 to beat out the current high bidder.
My guess is $22,500 if it sells.
Brothers, I don't think 22.5K will get it. There are plenty of brothers that want one and that only means one thing. It's going to be expensive. As in past proof VDB sales, the bar will be raised when this one is sold. I will only predict north of 30K.
1909 VDB 1c PCGS PR64RB
OBV: Decent eye appeal. A few small specks. Mark from back of Lincolns neck towards "spot" at 10 O'Clock. Check the mark from the back of the neck carefully-there is some disagreement of the cause-it may be a lamination or even in the plastic-not 100% on this one-sorry.
REV: Nice blending of color. A few small specks.
1909 Lincoln 1c PCGS PR67RD
OBV: Positive eye appeal. Color a little variegated. Somewhat strange area of color around Abe's eye. A little carbon,and a tiny streak by God.
REV:Lint mark by Left Wheat. Nearly devoid of carbon. This coin has very good "pop".
Good luck to all the bidders, not even going to guess what they will go for, but suspect the VDB will be higher than anything mentioned above.
Jonathan
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Brother, I got a feeling it ain't over yet.
New bid is now $24,000.00. That rises to $27,600.00 with the juice.
<< <i>my guess is at 42k >>
My guess is you are close. Not much longer to wait.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Now at 32.2 w/the BP
Will need 34.5 to beat it.
Suppose, hypothetically speaking, a 'dealer' (or two dealers working together) who may own a particular coin, could, again hypothetically, 'squeeze' a little more out of a bid to 'win' a bid at strategic times that have absolutely no real meaning, when in fact that dealer might just be bidding to drive up the bid so they make more money at the end of the auction. If you think about it, why would a collector who is interested in a coin tell other bidders how much they bid, and drive up a bid which they would themselves have to end up paying for? Maybe they do not ever really plan to pay for the coin. This particular coin was purchased already bought the same coin twice in the past at Previous Prices from Heritage Auctions:
1) November 30, 2006 64 PCGS $14,950.00;
2) May 8, 2004 64 PCGS $7,130.00.
(Records are interesting, huh?)
Seems obvious, no? Be careful if you think this could hypothetically happen.
30K maybe (the buyer from 2 years ago makes a pretty good (100%) return. But 42K?? Think about that for a minute.
The coin is at the PCGS guide right now, but one new bidder is suddenly using some very basic techniques to inflate a bid. HHHMMMMMM.
Just one man's point of view....
ANYTHING is possible when THIS coin comes up for auction. Bottom line to me is if someone wants to own the coin, and can afford it, he or she WILL pay to get it. I believe that in the past 5 years THIS coin's overall value has increased manyfold because of the increased interest in MPL's and the Set Registry. Dealer manipulation is always possible because ANY dealer can "flip" THIS coin for a profit in the current market if they wind up as top bidder. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
there's always some behind the scenes stuff as shoot the one who takes this 09vdb home could of made it just off of 08 with 07 reverse eagles this year.
Anything can happen. Agreed on all counts. I'm just a purist, and like a good legitimate bidding process.
For example, the dealer(s) who manipulate a coins's value by pushing it up may not be doing so for the purpose of a flip (if he/she were, he/she would want the bid low, so the money could be made on the flip). By inflating the price, the dealer is looking to make a quick opportunistic buck, that's my thinking. The game is this: the collector that buys this coin goes back to the dealer, sells at a low price, and the dealer puts the coin back on the shelf and recycles the coin (by inflating some more).
My bet is that 'ahem' *sometimes* one dealer may 'help' another dealer get the best possible price on a so-so coin by bidding on it at really ridiculous dead times in the bidding process, not when the real collectors are bidding, but when the when the real collectors who want the coin, go into waiting mode. The dealer wants to generate an artificial interest, and bids on the coin. Sometimes over-anxious collectors take the bait, because the coin is so 'rare' and it may never come back again! In the words of Austin powers: "Right......." What about the 'rare' 1915 64RB MPL that is fetching $550 at this point in the same auction? 1909VDB 420 minted; 1916 600 minted. You get my point.
So real coin collectors, who end up having to pay the premium (like us) end up getting an inflated coin as we get played against one-another. I can gaurantee you that if a collector buys this coin on Thursday, and takes it to any dealer, that dealer will offer 3/4 of what was just paid. It's a game we have seen in other industries. used cars comes to mind. But to bring the "sport of kings" to the level of a used car level just cheapens the process, in my opinion. But their are many ethical dealers, fortunetely, who won't pick your pocket, and will give you a quality product.
When Stewart Blay's 1914 hit the block recently, he made a good buck, but a fair buck, as he sold a true quality and rare coin. Watching the action in this so-called quality market bid is a little creepier, as the quality of the product is marginal (clearly compared to Blay's coin - which an unscrupulous dealer could not get near) so this coin is just getting pushed here.
That is my only point. the collectors here should be smart, and bidding in the high 20s, low 30s, tops, in my opinion, on this coin, and not allowing transparent bidders inflate their own bids. I'd like to complete my set, and will compete against other real bidders, but not much for taking sucker bait. I bet if no other collector places another bid on this coin in this auction, one of two things will proceed to happen 1) a real collector gets the coin for a 'semi'-reasonable bid, or 2) there is a dealer out there who eats his/her own strategy. I'd suggest going one notch higher, maybe, as the coin already has been artifically pushed 10K; more then that is an overpay.
Agreed? the next time a dealer bids this coin, I'd hold. Let them buy it at an inflated price and have a good chuckle watching these so-called collectors "stretch" there own wallets, and not yours and mine
Duane
Wasn't same coin in both past sales you cited. Just the more recent 11/06 one (where the pics made the coin look MUCH nicer - AND were/are closer to how it looks in hand). The current pics (esp. in the slab) make it look much closer to brown than reality).
The older sale, i.e. 5/04, was a different coin.
Current pic:
11/06 pic:
5/04 pic:
Duane
p.s. as for the dealer price manipulation you allude to, it CERTAINLY goes on but they do run the risk of pushing it too far resulting in a no sale & a problem with what to do after "winning" the lot. I disagree that it "can be flipped for a profit regardless of the price paid".
p.p.s. IMHO, 30k is/was a stretch AND should be the top for this (my 26+bp was 29,900). Anything further (and I'm not ruling out 35-40k) IMO is registry fever.
Actually it is the hobby of kings. The sport of kings is horses, and horse trading is far more unscrupulous!
Doug-Patent litigation has been dubbed the sport of kings, as well, for some time. These kings really have their hands full bewteen the the hobbies and sports
How about litigating patents while on horseback? And grading coins at the same time. Sounds challenging.
Anyone notice there is yet another bidder!! The planets are out of alignment, for sure.
Angel Dee's has a PR65RB in a green label holder, and there is another one in a 64RB rattler holder. For the life of me I can't remember where the 64RB was
Neither of them compare to Stewart Blay's 67RD though
Lincoln set Colorless Set
-Matt
P.S. I just e-mailed him to confirm on that.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
just kidding!
Lincoln set Colorless Set
as to the other???
i'm sure it carried a tag or you yourself would of pounced too
Lincoln set Colorless Set
-Matt
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Brothers, I received a call today and MPLs were moving on the bourse floor. I predict big changes in the PCGS price guide.
<< <i>Brothers, I received a call today and MPLs were moving on the bourse floor. I predict big changes in the PCGS price guide. >>
Do you think there will be some shuffling around on the Registry?
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
<< <i>
<< <i>Brothers, I received a call today and MPLs were moving on the bourse floor. I predict big changes in the PCGS price guide. >>
Do you think there will be some shuffling around on the Registry? >>
Yes.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
You cannot be referring to 30K for a PR65 RB MPL?? People on the Registry set would buy decent 65's all day long at 30K. Or 40. Or 50 for that matter!
Duane
Sorry I skipped/ignored the "tangent" of the thread.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Just to wrap up this thread, the 1909VDB Matte proof Lincoln cent in PCGS PR64RB sold for $34,500 including the fee at the Heritage ANA sale in Baltimore on Thursday afternoon. With a total of 10 bidders this sale continues to support the fact that THIS particular variety is in demand by collectors AT ANY GRADE as long as it is "the real thing". Two or three years ago I would not have thought this VDB proof in PR64RB would command much over $10k, but here we are in 2008 and the coin sells for more than $30k. What is really interesting to me is that of the 146 total 09VDB's slabbed by both PCGS and NGC (which includes crossovers and crackouts) ONLY 17 have graded PR63 or lower. Those collectors who have been priced out at $30k+ will probably have very little chance to find a lower grade at auction in the future. In many ways this is sad because I consider myself VERY lucky to have gotten mine in 2002 and I often think how I would feel today if I hadn't gotten it then. Steve
Steve,
I know how you'd feel. (underbidder on Steves VDB in 2002) And where my set fell short.
Congrats to the new VDB owners.
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
OK, I admit it, I'm not as sharp as you educated brothers, but I'm seeing innuendoes in this thread. Is there some suspicion floating about?
How about a PM from someone telling me who bought the VDB.
I can't seem to get you through your PM - what is the total number of 1909VDB MPL certified by all services - do you have that data?
Duane