Why are US coin reverses upside down

adamlaneus

Maybe they are right side up? But I see a difference between US coins and a British Sovereign:


If you want to see the reverse design of a US coin, you flip it over in a top/bottom manner. If you flip it left to right as if you are turning a page of a book, you are presented with a design that is upside down.

I've never seen a US coin that is different. You want to see the reverse design, that's how you flip it. Top-to-bottom.

I just saw my first Sovereign, a non US gold coin. It's reverse and obverse are not flipped as they are on US coins. If you want to view the reverse of one of these coins just flip it over left-to-right rather than top/bottom.

Is there any particularly good reason why this is so? Are ALL US coins like this? Is there a distinction of this sort of coin design by country? I don't recall this being one of the items in the original 1792 US coinage legislation. Who made this decision? Questions questions, but I figure this forum is the easiest place to find answers for someone who does not know how to search numismatic literature to find this answer.

edix2001

Balance.

howards

Partly it's tradition. Partly it's because the deepest parts of designs have tended to be on the upper half of the design (think heads, eagles), and coins strike up better if the deepest parts of the design due not oppose each other.

habaraca

because the mint is flippin crazy

OKbustchaser

They aren't "upside down". It is the rest of the world that is wrong.

AUandAG

My two bits says that we wanted to be different than Britain. After all, we did break away, did we not?

Good question,
bob

RWB

There are several good reasons, but I can’t think of them right now, so try these:
1) all American coin designers are left handed;
2) it is right-side-up – you are standing on the ceiling;
3) this confuses counterfeiters;
4) only the Washington quarter was designed this way. That is so the hanging bat on the reverse won’t fall off the coin;
5) because coinage dies are incuse;
6) the first US coinage dies were outsourced to the Australian Mint and made upside-down;
7) George Washington really did not mind having his portrait on the heads-side, but he didn’t want Martha on the reverse, so he demanded the reverse design be upside-down so Martha would think her wig would fall off;
8) is this kind of question really all you have to occupy your day?
9) it is intentional so that “heads” comes up more than “tails” but don't tell football players;
10) it’s part of the grand scheme for world domination by the Illuminati – the same people who put a camera eye on the dollar bill so they could watch your every move.

sweetwilliet

It has to do with the metric system.

(Remember, a quarter pounder is a Royale with Cheese.)

cladking

Except on the buffalo nickel, it's the reverse that is upside down.

Coinosaurus

Conversely, why are all the medals opposite orientation from coins?

Quarternut

US coins are made with a "coin" turn, as in you must flip the coin from top to bottom to view the reverse in the correct alignment. Just like this cool sign...

Foreign coins, Foreign medals, and US medals are made with a "medal" turn, as in you must flip the coin or medal from right to left (or left to right) to view the reverse design in the correct alignment.

My theory as far as US coins are concerned is that it helps differentiate coins from medals. The one exception I can think of are some of Gobrecht dollar restrikes as they were made with a "medal" turn instead of the proper "coin" turn.

QN

adamlaneus

Excellent. I knew someone would come by with the proper terminology and a good lead-in to further study! THANKS!!!

I would imagine that "coin turn" and "medal turn" are terminology that originated in the US.

Aegis3

<< <i>Conversely, why are all the medals opposite orientation from coins? >>



I was eventually going to ask why I saw a Vernon medal with coin rotation, and if the fact that it's opposite of British coins of the era means anything important. (Granted, I've only looked at one Vernon medal closely enough to notice this so I'm not sure how general it is.)

(But more seriously (yeah right), since orientations are basically re-expressions of rotation axes, is there any good reason to think any axis is favored over others?)

WoodenJefferson

With the heads side oriented correctly between thumb and fore finger, just try and flip it any other way than directly to the 180 degree offset.

When coins were originally minted in the late 1700's there was no real rhyme or reason for the offset, it just came about that way and stayed.

CoinKing1969

<< <i>My two bits says that we wanted to be different than Britain. After all, we did break away, did we not?

Good question,
bob >>



Same theory why they drive on the left and we on the right.

denga

Quarternut Monday July 07, 2008

The one exception I can think of are some of Gobrecht dollar restrikes as they were made with a "medal" turn instead of the proper "coin" turn.

The Gobrecht dollars struck in March 1837 (using dies of 1836) are originals, not restrikes.
They were minted in medal alignment because the weight and fineness had been changed
and it was necessary to distinguish them for purposes of the Assay Commission meeting
scheduled for February 1838.

Denga

sfs2002usa

I believe it was to enforce a complete break with colonial British traditions.
Perhaps surprisingly the British based SAE measurement system is still widely in use in
stead of the modern ISO Metric system (of weights and measures).

barbershopper

It's simple. They're pandering to coin album makers.
When I want to look at the reverse of a coin, I have to turn the album upside down!
That makes it wear out quicker and gives me a headache to boot.
Don't ask me how they knew this in 1792!

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<My two bits says that we wanted to be different than Britain. After all, we did break away, did we not?>>

There is little rhyme or reason here. Pre 1907 Britain made the coins for Canada, but they were upside down compared to Britain. When the Canadian mint opened they flipped them to match the British.

In those early days, the coastal provinces drove on the left like England, but the interior provinces drove on the right like the US.
Today China drives on the right, but Hong Kong and Macao drive on the left. It makes for some interesting border cloverleafs.

ProofArtworkonCircs

I am surprised that nobody has called me on my boo-boo yet.
My comments on pre 1907 Canadian coins applies to the silver coins only.
The copper cents were always the medal style like modern Britain.

Zoins

Does anyone know if British coin collectors say their coins use "medal turn" and US coins use "coin turn"? Or if they use something else? Or is "coin turn" and "medal turn" primarily US terms?

blu62vette

<< <i>I just saw my first Sovereign, a non US gold coin. It's reverse and obverse are not flipped as they are on US coins. If you want to view the reverse of one of these coins just flip it over left-to-right rather than top/bottom. >>



This is a mint medal but it flips like you mention, left to right........

adamlaneus

My Jacques Wiener medal has a 'Medal Flip'.

My Canadian Maple leaf coins have a 'Medal Flip'

My American Silver Eagle coins have a 'Coin Flip'

I have two US tokens which both have a 'Coin Flip'

Of course, I have one or two rotated dies. (I wonder how much mixing up this flip during the minting of coins would have foiled counterfeitters? What if every year had a specific reverse orientation? Hmmm.)
[edit] I guess I am a product of a paranoid world.

GFourDriver

Because it's not Canada eh.

RWB

Here is the response to this question provided the US Mint on June 8, 1967 to US Senator Birch Bayh (inquiring for a constituent):

Q: "What reason or act of Congress were there that decided to have the obverse 180-degrees opposite of the reverse side of United States coins?"

A: "The alignment of the obverse and reverse designs, known as the 'coin turn,' on our coins is not a matter of law. This convention was adopted for the first United States coinage and has been used throughout our history. The accuracy of this alignment is also not a matter of law but reasonable tolerances have been established by the Mint, based upon actual experience."

Hope the above at least partially answers your question.

adamlaneus

I love the dry language.

Especially about tolerances for die rotations also not being a matter of law.

The quoted answer is interesting at some levels, especially bureaucratic ones.

I like the anti-england answer; rotate our coins 180 degrees from the country we just broke away from, as the time was about right. No real evidence for any other motivation.

RWB

Mint engraver Charles Barber used dies aligned "medal-turn" when he made trial strikes for final approval. He said this allowed him to easily differentiate the trial pieces from production coins if the question came up later.

BECOKA

I like the theory that it is to help prevent clashing.

PerryHall

<< <i>I like the theory that it is to help prevent clashing. >>



How come we so many coins struck from clashed dies? This theory makes no sense. If the planchet doesn't feed into the coining chamber, you are going to get a clashed die no matter what the die allignment is.

Coxe

Because it would, in time, help cable TV hucksters out. You get a better balanced rotation on a horizontal axis than a vertical axis. If they want to make such devices to show off their terrific enameled ASEs and state quarters, why not make it easier for them?

ProofArtworkonCircs

This contraversy, if that is what it is, must go back a long ways indeed.
All my ancient Greek coins are medal turn.
All my ancient Roman coins are coin turn.