HOF Class of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Johnson and Schilling ...
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
I don't want to see it happen because I want to see them pitch a couple of more years, but wouldn't a Hall of Fame Class of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Johnson and Schilling be something else?
/s/ JackWESQ ... in bed recovering from pneumonia
/s/ JackWESQ ... in bed recovering from pneumonia
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<< <i>If Schilling is all done, he would be a year before the others. He didn't pitch in a major league game this year. >>
Well, it could still happen, since I don't expect Schilling to be a first-ballot inductee. I'm a Schilling fan, and do believe he deserves to be inducted, but I really don't think he'll make it in on the first ballot. Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Johnson on the other hand, I would think will make it the first time.
Steve
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
"sosa, clemens, bonds, " 3 guys who will wait a very long time to get in. maybe if they buy a ticket.
i don't think that would matter Vito, a player has to be officially retired and Shilling is still
on the roster.
Steve
First ballot? Not sure about that.
Steve
<< <i>"Only" 216 wins. The only chance he's got is his friendliness with the sportswriters could sway and likely will sway some votes. How many I have no idea. Frankly, I don't think it's a lock either way - it's close either way. He may have to stay involved with baseball as a coach, manager or perhaps an announcer/broadcaster to eventually gather enough votes some year to get in. >>
Just compare Schilling's regular season lifetime statistics and lifetime postseason statistics to Hall of Famer Jim Catfish Hunter.
You will see that Schilling will easily get into the hall if Catfish did.
One was a finesse pitcher the other a flame thrower.
216 wins? so? how about the 3k in strikeouts? dominance is there.
IMO he gets in but not sure when.
The only thing keeping him back are the years he wasted playing in Philly.
How many wins did he lose there?
<< <i>
How many wins did he lose there?
>>
I know that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I've always said he lost at least 15 games playing for that horrible 95-99 Phillies team. Maybe even more. He's a HOF lock as far as I'm concerned. It's guys like Craig Biggio and Rafael Palmiero (well, maybe not him anymore
I don't know if any of you listen to that moron Colin Cowherd but the other day he said that we need to look at the postseason heavily because a guy like Derek Jeter would be borderline if not for postseason. I almost crashed my car (and I'm a RED SOX FAN). I hate Cowherd. He knows nothing about anything other than football. Jeter is a .316 career hitter who could very well end up with 3,500 hits.
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No need to state that the HOF voters do look at wins, as I already realize that...which just reaffirms their ignorance anyway.
No need to say that a pitcher "knows how to win despite giving up runs like Jack Morris," as that is probably the biggest myth and falsehood in the history of sports.
Schilling saved appx 326 runs better than the league average pitcher, and 1,244 better than the league average REPLACEMENT level pitcher.
From those numbers, one can get a better idea to gauge SCHILLING'S pitching ability, and not the ability of his goodness or badness of his run support(which he has no control over).
Other pitchers...
Schilling 326, 1,244
Smoltz 350, 1,246
Glavine, 291, 1,324
Mussina. 296, 1,257
Brown....237, 1,075
Cone......201, 979
Unit..........394, 1,587
Maddux....477, 1,689
Pedro.......417, 1,194
Fat head liar rapist....628, 2043
If you look at their runs saved above average, Schilling(326) is right on par with glavine/smoltz, and shines above that third tier group of Mussina, etc....but is not quite with the elite four. Whether that constitutes a HOF pitcher is debatable.
The second number representing runs saved above replacement level really measures on the longevity/innings eater side. All a pitcher has to do to accumulate runs saved here is pitch better than a league replacement level pitcher(which is appx 85% the level of the leage average player). This is where Schilling falls back to the pack a bit, but is still very close.
The above replacement level is where Pedro does not shine due to him not throwing the innings as the others. The fat head liar rapist is well above everyone in both areas, and it isn't even close.
Does Schilling get extra consideration for being able to compare with those guys while enduring some injury years? Possibly. Does he get extra consideration for Post Season dominance? Even though that is just randomness on the high end, he probably does.
My take? Schilling is every bit as worthy as Glavine and Smoltz. I won't be swayed by Glavine's win total, as that is a product of the team he played on. Those three guys make it six SP from this era going to the Hall, and would be seven if the rapist didn't rape and do drugs.
That isn't too out of the ordinary...as long as they don't starting filliing the Hall up with a bunch of one inning relief pitchers from this era. I would put him in.
too bad the actual people who do the voting are ignorant and could care less about that stat.
Steve
<< <i>Comparing Schilling and Catfish is like comparing apples and oranges.
One was a finesse pitcher the other a flame thrower.
216 wins? so? how about the 3k in strikeouts? dominance is there.
Not sure when the hall of fame decided that strikeout pitchers were more important then finesse pitchers.
BTW, I wonder who has been more dominant this season.
1. Justin Duscherer 9-5 era 1.96 k's 59 innings 92
2. Josh Beckett 8-5 era 3.70 k's 105 innings 107
Nothing personal, but this "argument" for Hall of Fame induction always ticks me off. Shouldn't matter if a player was in the "top 6" at his position, it should only matter if he was a great player...PERIOD.
It's like the "Bill Mazeroski argument" - just because he was the best second baseman of his era, in my view doesn't mean he should be in the Hall of Fame, and Mazeroski SHOULD NOT be in the Hall of Fame, and if he doesn't hit "that home run" against the Yankees then he wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.
Schilling no doubt is an excellent pitcher and at times a great pitcher. Great enough for the Hall of Fame? Sorry not in "my" Hall of Fame but the Hall of Fame is so watered down these days, I guess some here want to water it down some more.
Why not make 200 wins an automatic induction into the Hall of Fame, that way there can be more players in there. Why not make 300 home runs an automatic induction into the Hall of Fame. Let's make 1,000 hits an automatic induction. How about a good minor league or college career an automatic induction. I once threw a 2 hitter in a Little League game - heck I should be in the Hall of Fame.
<< <i>
"sosa, clemens, bonds, " 3 guys who will wait a very long time to get in. maybe if they buy a ticket. >>
Perhaps Sosa will never get in, but Barry and Roger were certainly exceptional players with or without the presumed juice.
Both Roger and Barry were lighting it up early in their career before their bodies started an amazing growing process.
To be fair to them, I would have to take this into consideration.
<< <i>
<< <i>
"sosa, clemens, bonds, " 3 guys who will wait a very long time to get in. maybe if they buy a ticket. >>
Perhaps Sosa will never get in, but Barry and Roger were certainly exceptional players with or without the presumed juice.
Both Roger and Barry were lighting it up early in their career before their bodies started an amazing growing process.
To be fair to them, I would have to take this into consideration. >>
Sosa ain't ever getting in...but Bonds and Clemens - let's not be silly because they are obvious Hall of Famers.
Yes, it is too bad the voters don't recognize that.
Edmundfitzgerald, the one aspect where strikeout pitchers can matter is that their performance is not as intertwined with the ability of the defense as much as the finesse pitchers.
One may look better than he truly is simply because they have guys who are better at catching the ball than their counterpart. A strikeout pitcher's performance is a little less reflective on his defense, and his ERA is probably a higher product of his performance, as opposed to defense making plays(like a finese pitchers MAY be).
Of course, isolating how much is the pitcher, and how much is the doing of the defense is a grey area. Simply going by ERA and IP over average ERA gets one enough info to make a solid judgement.
As pointed out above in the runs saved, Schilling is riding with good company.
<< <i>
Edmundfitzgerald, the one aspect where strikeout pitchers can matter is that their performance is not as intertwined with the ability of the defense as much as the finesse pitchers.
One may look better than he truly is simply because they have guys who are better at catching the ball than their counterpart. A strikeout pitcher's performance is a little less reflective on his defense, and his ERA is probably a higher product of his performance, as opposed to defense making plays(like a finese pitchers MAY be).
. >>
That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I can see how someone would be influenced by that logic.
I would say that a guy like Maddux and Hunter just made it look easy, with or without their defense behind them.
Hitters more frequently then not looked confused and off balanced trying to hit these guys.
It is kind of like watching Tim Wakefield when he is on. Even though he's not striking out too many, he's getting 15 soft flyball
outs and has hitters guessing and off balanced all night long.
Not sure when the hall of fame decided that strikeout pitchers were more important then finesse pitchers.
I never said they were, my reply was with you comparing the 2. My point was both have similar wins(agreed with you) , Schilling has 3k in strikeouts.
(which I said was his dominating factor)
Steve
In my opinion neither should be first ballot hall-of-famers, but both should eventually make it in as they have some of the better numbers of their era and there were never steroid rumors surrounding these two.
The fact that he did close for those years will help him IMO.
Steve
I stand corrected, I think it is 200 wins and 100 saves.