Early US copper fakes from China - very bad news
Frankcoins
Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
The Chinese forgers have started making early US copper in generally correct known varieties. These are
likely available without the replica stamp on request, and probably all are being sent WITHOUT markings, as
we have seen previously.
Link
SInce early copper is crudely made, with unknown varieties still being discovered, and the general
collector being unfamiliar with the appearance of high grade pieces, this stuff is very bad for the
market.
likely available without the replica stamp on request, and probably all are being sent WITHOUT markings, as
we have seen previously.
Link
SInce early copper is crudely made, with unknown varieties still being discovered, and the general
collector being unfamiliar with the appearance of high grade pieces, this stuff is very bad for the
market.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
0
Comments
From the images, it looks like their product has improved in quality from a few years ago. And they will continue to improve it.
Look at all the bids on this guys auctions. Then check out his completed auctions. It is not comforting.
These guys (the sellers and bidders) of these counterfeit coins are poisoning OUR pool of US coinage.
It is only a matter of time.
I knew it would happen.
Maybe grounds to get them booted from eBay if it is a fake.
Link to auction
Ankur
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>The seller sold this. The pcgs on the slab dosent look right to me.
Maybe grounds to get them booted from eBay if it is a fake.
Link to auction >>
"PCGS 158487.64/13858474" (1920) 10 Csh PCGS MS64RB China Y-303 sold by jinghuashei for $325 for search engine referencing.
The Chinese just want to manufacture coins for us. Is it so hard to understand ? We have them making our underwear, shoes, and trinkets ..., so why not our "collectibles"
For these type collectors, we have WalMart. Thank you very much !
Now if these coins are listed under "U.S. Coins" it is a violation of eBay's policy. And if they allow it, they are the guilty party, not the manufacturer.
that half cent has the chocolate brown collectors desire.
I do not know how to fix the problem. It's a problem, still the same.
in a way, it's surprising it took so long for them to take note of the premiums we pay.
He will send you a link to his catolog, all available without replica........
<< <i>Then to save the hobby, TavernTreasures should start a movement to shut down E-Bay forever! >>
Even though I do not like what Ebay has become, I do not wish their demise. But.....Ebay has closed listings for Nazi item collectors. Ebay has closed listings for Third party slabs such as PCI, SECS, etc. For a start, maybe Ebay could close listings to all China based coin sellers.
Do we really need these guys selling their fakes? Do they benefit the hobby in any way?
The "Ebay community"? (that is what Ebay calls it-dont they?). Why are these China based counterfeiters a part of it?
[edited for spelling]
Personally, I've added early copper over a certain value, to the list of coins I won't by from unknown sellers on Ebay. That includes slabbed or raw, domestic or international sellers. It is too easy to find middlemen that will resell for a cut, and the fake slab problem is at least as troubling as the fake coins. I'm sure the folks churning out fake slabs are in cahoots with this maker or similar.
There are four threats: fake raw coins, fake coins in fake slabs, real coins in fake slabs at a higher grade, fakes good enough to make it into a top tier slab. Only the last one seems to be holding, and even then one in a million slips through the graders and authenticator. The other three are a sieve. Some people seem to be counting on easily overcome barriers such as looking for sellers from China. I would guess these fakes are flooding over via back channels, or soon will be.
The only way "they" are going to ruin "our" hobby is if we don't take the time to educate ourselves.
The elitists will probably reply that it will be a good thing for the ordinary collectors to be gone since they will have less competition for the coins they want. I can just picture an EAC convention at which the few remaining collectors of early copper sit around by candlelight trading kegs of early copper they have purchased for a song from ordinary collectors who have dropped out of the hobby... and then one of them will notice that one of their fellow experts has a sophisticated fake in their collection...
That would take care of about 98% of this.
Which ones?
ebay is not going to shoot themselves in the foot with this kind of policy.What's needed is a Hobby Protection Act that really means business.
The Hobby Protection Act that is currently in place is a joke.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I don't agree with all the doom and gloom. The hobby can deal with fakes and high volume fakes are the easiest to deal with. Copper is perhaps best suited to identify fakes becasue all of the serious copper collectors are used to looking at tiny details to discern varieties. EACers will be fine.--Jerry >>
Your words do nothing for me. "The hobby can deal with fakes..." How? The grading companies were founded to meet that need, however, now they are faking the slabs. The early attempts had easy to correct mistakes such as the wrong font. The next generation is likely flawless in terms of visible inspection.
Only maybe 1% of current collectors have the expertise to authenticate. I doubt this will ever get over 5% for the best fakes. For the EAC group, the level of expertise is much higher, as these are the elite of the elite collectors. However, most collectors will never get to that level of expertise, and have neither the time or desire to do so. Many may leave the hobby after they are burned a time or two. If you want to sell to the top 5% of the collectors enjoy your business, but understand that the other 95% may leave.
What can be done about fake slabs? The photo database is a good idea, but what about the millions of legacy slabs. Who pays to get them into a photo database? What is to prevent the counterfeiters from sending in their fakes as legacy slabs to get into the database? How much time would be needed to verify every slab out there? How much money?
What about real coins in fake slabs at a higher grade? How much time will be needed to verify every transaction? How many collectors will still find the hobby enjoyable as the cloud of doubt grows as more and more fakes flood the market? If it isn't fun anymore, I will get out of the hobby, or only buy direct from the U. S. mint, plus a few very low cost coins (under $20), where if they are fake it won't hurt much.
/ edit typos
<< <i>
<< <i>How about a blanket policy from ebay "no coin listings accepted from China" >>
ebay is not going to shoot themselves in the foot with this kind of policy. >>
One problem is that on the surface those auctions look like they are complying with US/eBay policy. It's almost as if you need to catch the seller in the act, like offering a coin without the replica stamp via eBay messaging.
Another option is for eBay to require all replica coins to be put into a different category to protect the unsuspecting.
However, each of these will have limited impact due to the presence of complicit buyers / re-sellers that will simply buy without asking, even if they are in replica categories, assuming they will get pieces without the stamps.
Also, as mentioned, eBay isn't the only way to get these manufactured items into this country. If eBay shut down all Chinese sellers, the problem would still exist as there are many other ways to get bulk quantities of these items into the US by determined re-sellers to utter.
<< <i>What's needed is a Hobby Protection Act that really means business.
The Hobby Protection Act that is currently in place is a joke. >>
In China, they've handed out the death penalty to white collar Chinese citizens that robbed from other Chinese citizens. Perhaps increasing the penalties for Americans that violate the Hobby Protection Act would accomplish something?
This is the beginning of the end for coin collectors. All of you need to collect US Currency - it's trackable with Serial Numbers. Much more rare than coins at bargain prices in relation to numbers known. Give it a try, you won't be sorry.
I enjoy your posts but disagree with you on this one. Have you ever been offered a fake slab? --Jerry
This is another reason to know more about coins before buying, the best way to avoid fakes is by knowing real coins.
Even with the word REPLICA stamped on them, these pieces violate the Hobby Protection Act, which is very clear in requiring the word COPY.
Laws, ethics, western morals are all irrelevant to these ultimate capitalists. China, Inc. is happy to have them and will do nothing to supress them so long as Europe and the US buy their products.
<< <i>The letter of the law:
Even with the word REPLICA stamped on them, these pieces violate the Hobby Protection Act, which is very clear in requiring the word COPY. >>
I believe COPY is only required if the item can be reasonably mistaken to be a "genuine numismatic item." It seems unclear if a reasonable person would think a piece marked REPLICA could be a genuine numismatic item. My guess is that this is somewhat of a gray area and clarification could be brought by bringing this to court.
Another tricky thing is that older counterfeits that existed before the Hobby Protection Act may not need be marked COPY, e.g. New Haven Fugios, Micro-O Morgans, Omega Saints, and many others. If this is the case then someone can simply claim that their counterfeits are also older than the Hobby Protection Act and do not need to be marked either. The HPA may be designed for known minting operations in the States and not individual re-sellers, as claiming one's pieces are older than the HPA is reasonable easy if they don't find you with the manufacturing equipment. To get around this deficiency in the HPA, it could be expanded to require COPY marked on any counterfeit peice in any post-HPA transaction / sale, no matter when it was created. Then it would be more clear that all counterfeits need to have it when sold, however this may also impact some collectible counterfeits.
<< <i>How about a blanket policy from ebay "no coin listings accepted from China"
That would take care of about 98% of this. >>
HOW BOUT WE ROUND UP ALL THE JAPANISE AND PUT THEM IN CAMPS...........
HOW 'BOUT WE GET RID OF EVERY " aMBRO51 " SO legitimate Chinese seller's could flourish in a free enterprise system
In fact............little poster down the line....how about YOU start and begin to buy up all the "funny" Morgans and Trade Dollars.
Put yer money where your luv for chinese coin sellers is.
<< <i>Red Tiger,
I enjoy your posts but disagree with you on this one. Have you ever been offered a fake slab? --Jerry >>
Do you disagree with my point that 1% of current collectors have the expertise to authenticate? Or that no more than 5% will ever be able to authenticate against high quality fakes? Or that the quality of fakes are going to get better year after year? Or that fake slabs are a huge potential problem with no easy solutions? Especially real coins in fake slabs at a higher grade.
Fakes, especially fake slabs are a 0.1% problem today, maybe even less than that. Next year it may get to 1%, the year after 5%. In ten years it may well get to 50%. Keep whistling while the destructive tide rises. Again, I look at other hobbies and what has happened there, where in some cases more than half of the items offered are fake or altered items. The natural course of events is for it to happen to coins unless something is different.
Nothing you have said gives me any confidence the tide won't overwhelm the levees. Nothing in place today, nothing proposed as blue sky ideas on this board, would do more than slow down the tide of fakes. Again, Chinese counterfeiters had a fake fully functional Apple IPhone for sale one week after the official release. Faking a piece of metal and a slab of plastic are child's play compared to the technical challenges of faking state of the art functional technology. Some may think that the problem fakes are like the tourist pot metal items sold in souvenir shops, but those are not the problem. The problem is high tech, state of the art fakes, both coins and slabs, that would fool most collectors and many dealers. Understating the problem, with your off hand remarks does nothing for my confidence.
<< <i>Chinese counterfeiters had a fake fully functional Apple IPhone for sale one week after the official release. Faking a piece of metal and a slab of plastic are child's play compared to the technical challenges of faking state of the art functional technology. Some may think that the problem fakes are like the tourist pot metal items sold in souvenir shops, but those are not the problem. The problem is high tech, state of the art fakes, both coins and slabs, that would fool most collectors and many dealers. >>
One of the reasons they have the technology is that they make the genuine article in many cases so American companies are relying on them to have the technology. Genuine Apple iPhones are made in China. It's been reported that two of the top four TPGs have their genuine slabs made in China. The other two may or may not use genuine Chinese slabs, but if a firm can make genuine top TPG slabs in one shape, they can presumably make convincing slabs in other shapes. For the items where the genuine article is made overseas, we can be sure they have the technology and processes in place to make the genuine article and similar items to genuine article quality.
I will be back in about a week or so, and unfortunately, my travels are forcing me to spend the weekend in Beijing. I hope to get back to the Silk Market and see if they now have copper for sale, in addition to the silver coins.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
One of the reasons they have the technology is that they make the genuine article in many cases so American companies are relying on them to have the technology. Genuine Apple iPhones are made in China. It's been reported that two of the top four TPGs have their genuine slabs made in China. The other two may or may not use genuine Chinese slabs, but if a firm can make genuine top TPG slabs in one shape, they can presumably make convincing slabs in other shapes. For the items where the genuine article is made overseas, we can be sure they have the technology and processes in place to make the genuine article and similar items to genuine article quality.