1964 Topps

HammeringHank

Incredible as it seems...I'm now only 37 cards away from completing the impossible...an entire set of PSA 9 or better 1964 Topps baseball cards...strangely some of the cards that I'm missing are 7-12 pops...and in the past year I have not seen one of them...

One of my most unbelieveable fines was a PSA 8 card that I "popped" and had it returned as a PSA 9 card (one of only 6)...

I've also had help from a couple of collectors that I will mention when the set is complete, because without them...I would have been stuck some time ago...

I'm hoping that this post will find me some more of these cards...my plan is to go to the Nationals and look for ungraded materials...especially on the really low pops...I might get lucky...who knows...

If anyone reading this note can help me or stear me into finding PSA 9 or 10 1964 cards I would appreciate the help, because without it...I'm not sure I can make this happen...thanks...

Estil

I bet building that set didn't come cheap, did it? I plan on maybe starting on some 1960s sets in the 2010s (I getting 1971 this year, 1972 & 1973 for 2009, then 1970 for 2010), but I'll probably have to settle for raw EXMT condition with PSA 6 key cards. That is incredible you can afford to go for all 9's; I'm surprised such a thing is even possible.

Hope you'll show us some scans of course (both sides preferably).

Fuzz

There is a PSA 10 pop 1 in the upcoming MHCC auction.
Fuzz

HammeringHank

I bet building that set didn't come cheap, did it?

Let's just say you can throw SMR out the window...

RonBurgundy

It would help if people knew the cards you need. Can you post a list?




RB

Estil

Frankly, I'm quite surprised he didn't post what cards he needed.

I'm just curious, why did you do 1964? Was that the first set/packs you collected? You might be interested to know that 1964 was the last year you could get penny packs.

Fuzz

Estil,
Hate to put a damper on this but I am certain that there are 1c packs from 1965 as well.

HammeringHank

I'm just curious, why did you do 1964?

I'm not sure why...maybe because some people have helped me and been very generous...while others have taken advantage and nailed me to the wall...mostly I suppose that there might be someone that overbids on a card I need knowing how desperate I am for the card???

I'd really like this set to be a one-of a kind...a show piece...I realize I do not have the extended collection that others might have...but his one for some reason is going to be "my" definative moment...

I'm not certain that it can be done...it's almost impossible..because there are some 1 of 1 PSA 9's in other sets...that I will not get unless I find another card...

tribefan4ever

Henri -

I know you can do it.

Best of luck and thanks for helping with my 64 Topps set.

Bill

Estil

<< <i>Estil,
Hate to put a damper on this but I am certain that there are 1c packs from 1965 as well. >>



Sorry 'bout that. You are indeed correct. 1965 was the final year for penny packs.

Bosox1976

Henri:

So far so great! 39 cards in 39 weeks ? Best of luck.

HammeringHank

I'm moving on...I'm down to 34 cards now...found 3 more thanks to this thread...please keep them coming...

HammeringHank

Three months ago...I started this thread...needing 39 cards to complete the set...now down to 22 cards...surprisingly most of my additions have been PSA 10's...I now have 60 of them in this set...

What is interesting is that I have a few missing that are not really low-low pops...like...9 cards are 1 of 6 pops...which generally are not hard to find...and these four? Anyone know how I could lay my hands on these I'd grateful for the help...thanks!

#570 Mazeroski...1 of 9
#531 Dodgers Team...1 of 12
#223 George Banks...1 of 8
#111 Don Elston...1 of 8

DRS

Henri:

I have a Tommy Harper #330 PSA 9

HammeringHank

DRS...thank you...I have Harper as well...

I do not need any 300 numbered cards...in the 400's...I need three #407, #444, #474...

HammeringHank

I thought I'd update this thread...I'm now down to the last 12 cards...just picked up the Dodger Team card...which surprised me...because there are so many of them...but I have not seen one in the last two years...so I was happy to get it...

How about this as an aside...I was real lucky a few months ago to find a PSA 8 #10 card...that I popped and had regraded and it came back as a PSA 9! I was astounded to say the least! So recently I purchased some PSA 8.5's from three different sources...they looked sweet...I mean if there was no .5 system I thought they'd surely be 9's...in fact they look better than some of the 10's I own...so I popped them...and had them regraded...guess what...3 of the 4 came back as "trimmmed'!!!!! How is that possible? How can that be? How did cards that once were graded 8.5 (and they are 1 of 1's) come back now as non-gradeable??

Needless to say I have contacted PSA for an explanation...something is wrong...not sure what...but it makes me real worried about the 500 plus other cards I have that are in 9 holders...could they be trimmed as well? I have no idea how a card can be seen as trimmed one day and another be okay...because I have heard of this happening before...just not to me...

iamarock

<< <i>I thought I'd update this thread...I'm now down to the last 12 cards...just picked up the Dodger Team card...which surprised me...because there are so many of them...but I have not seen one in the last two years...so I was happy to get it...

How about this as an aside...I was real lucky a few months ago to find a PSA 8 #10 card...that I popped and had regraded and it came back as a PSA 9! I was astounded to say the least! So recently I purchased some PSA 8.5's from three different sources...they looked sweet...I mean if there was no .5 system I thought they'd surely be 9's...in fact they look better than some of the 10's I own...so I popped them...and had them regraded...guess what...3 of the 4 came back as "trimmmed'!!!!! How is that possible? How can that be? How did cards that once were graded 8.5 (and they are 1 of 1's) come back now as non-gradeable??

Needless to say I have contacted PSA for an explanation...something is wrong...not sure what...but it makes me real worried about the 500 plus other cards I have that are in 9 holders...could they be trimmed as well? I have no idea how a card can be seen as trimmed one day and another be okay...because I have heard of this happening before...just not to me... >>



Oh yes, Henri. This has worried me as well for years. I think we have to assume that a certain percentage of our cards, and anyone's cards, have been tampered with even though they are in 9 holders.
I find, though, that if I think about it too much I don't enjoy the hobby at all. Try not to let it disturb you too much. Just keep telling yourself, "PSA says it's mint, so it must be mint."
Just my 2 cents.

Russell

mariner

Henri, just an incredible accomplishment!! Congrats and good luck on finishing off your goal.

briani

I recently cracked out 13 cards (all 1964 topps) and sent them in on a submission and the results just came back today. All were N1:Evidence of Trimming. I know this can't be the case. Most were graded by PSA and also by SGC. I will be going down to PSA in the next week to have a discussion. Most likely there is a grader or two that has been misinforned on what to look for.

Bosox1976

Seems to be significantly more trimmed cards getting through since the advent of the half point grading. Be wary on these cards - with 1962 Topps I am seeing about 25% that look trimmed - even HOF that used to get much closer scrutiny.

Morgoth

I think it has swung both ways. I think since the 75 mini fiasco PSA is on edge. Collectors are starting to reject graded cards that look short or suspicious. I have heard major collectors are taking back some of their suspicous PSA 9s graded very early and did not like the results.

Bottom line, in all holders there is trimmed or altered cards. With this new focus on trimming I would be very careful in popping out any cards for regrading. Reviews are more crapshoots in getting bumps but its better than coming back w/o a holder.

JiveTalkinStu

"Just close your eyes and not think about it too much"? Wow, what a head in the sand mentality that is. Jive Talkin Stu don't like that.

Robby

I have to agree with Jason here , if you have cards in a Psa holder that you think might bump up a half grade or full grade , just go with the review , and if it doesn't bump , you still have it holdered !
Hammer , looking forward to the day when I can view your spectactular set , along with Spence's also ! I don't blame you for keeping it hidden , as I've always believed there are shiller's out there running up the cost of the card , especially now with the new E-Bay policy of hiding bidders ID'S !!!!!! I've noticed alot of new competion for Psa 9's on E-Bay , as some new collectors are jumping into the 64 Set Registry ! It's a terrific set to collect , and is a great simple design with lots of bold , bright, colors ...... love the way the players picture just seems to jump out at you , with that 2 -D look !!!!! Good luck with your goal of completing this set ! ........ Dave ' Robbie ' Robinson

WinPitcher

Great Job is all I can say!


Mike yeah Ive noticed that too. Or at least I've noticed more room within the slab then I used too.


Steve

HammeringHank

Okay...spoke to Joe...returned all the cards...and they are again in 8.5 holders...go figure? Really...if there was no .5 system...these cards WOULD be PSA 9's...two are 1 of 1...the other is 1 of 2...

I honestly would be proud to own two of them in 10 holders they are that nice!!!! Oh, well...

Look like my goal is going to be IMPOSSIBLE...I refuse to put 8.5's into this collection...

HammeringHank

Here is an update regarding what is going on with my set...long story short...I found some more very nice looking 64's that I had PSA look at (11 of them that I thought a few would come back with 9's...two I thought were 10's)...best grade I could get was 8.5...so finding PSA 9's looks like an impossible task...I now have 12 cards that are 8.5's (most 1 of 1's)...and I'm missing 7 others entirely...not getting 9's from cards that I was sure would make the grade sort of took the wind out of my sails...I will still look for 9's and 10's however right now....my thought is just to finish the set with 8's and get on with working on another set...what I need are the following #3,6,72,183,201,435,585...those that know this set can see by what I need just how hard it is to find these cards in 9's or 10's...so the question is...does anyone have these 7 cards in PSA 8...

Thanks...and Happy New Year to everyone...

Henri

Blackie

Henri.............awsome set..........I made it about 45 percent a few years back and just gave up. Its a beautiful set

calaban7

Henri-- Great set. I started to collect that set, graded about 2 years ago. I decided my interest were elsewhere , but kept some of the better cards. I don't have any of the cards on your short list, but do have a low pop # 133 , Jim Grant PSA 9. If that would help, let me know. Thanks again----Sonny

fiveniner

<< <i>Great Job is all I can say!


Mike yeah Ive noticed that too. Or at least I've noticed more room within the slab then I used too.


Steve >>





Steve I notice that also quite often.

JMDVM

So, your cards went from 8.5 to trimmed back to 8.5. I'm happy for you that PSA made it right , BUT this should be sending chills up all of our collective spines because it tells us that PSA has graders who are either clueless and/or incompetent and that goes far beyond the usual subjectiveness of an individual grader.Can PSA really detect whether a card is trimmed or just cut short at the factory? Are they just blowing smoke? I've had high pop cheap commons come back trimmed----who would waste time trimming a $1 common? And I've had holdered cards that I pulled and resubmitted that have come back trimmed, only to pass on the next re-submission! And what does "minimum size" mean----an admission from PSA that they can't tell either if its a factory cut or a trim job??? However the worst thing is that Joe waves his magic wand and PRESTO the cards are back in the holders----and here I was thinking that grading at PSA doesn't involve politics---yeah right! There are two reasons I'm grading my sets. First,it drives the market. Second, if I ever need to liquidate my collection, I think it will be easier. But God help us all if the scandalous truth ever came out. You would think that a disgruntled ex-grader would have written a "tell all" book by now,unless of course there are no such graders because the have been stabbed and thrown in the trunk of Joe's car......

HammeringHank

I spoke in detail with Joe regarding this whole subject...mainly because I was extremely concerned with the inconsistancies that I see in the grading systems...some of what he said I agree with some I did not...and I told him so...I like what PSA is trying to do...I just question the system....and I question it just as I might argue with a family member...I'm not opposed to PSA...I just want understanding...

First, graders are not old men and women with years of experience at grading anything...they are for the most part 20-35 year olds that are required to slam through cards at a very hectic pace (insider information from a past grader)...they really do not care about your card (and they shouldn't)...they are taught a system and then use that plus there own vision to grade our cards...

There is a very limited scientific method!!! And that is why there is no consistancy with regards to grading...

It's basically an "educated" crap shoot...All PSA provides is a 3rd party prespective...nothing more...it is not 100% fool-proof or accurate...just like the pricing guide (it's not perfect)...

As PSA consumers we expect that when we submit our cards that the grading is accurate...and for the most part they probably are...the trouble is when it is not and it is with YOUR card we get mifted...so the assumption is that if ours is wrong...everything is wrong...

The best we can hope for is a good average...meaning that 70-80-90% of the time these grades are accurate...yes...I believe that they are that far off based on my experience...in my case 11 of 17 cards were graded differently...that is not even 50% accuracy...

I am not happy about having 11 of 17 cards come back with different grades then what they were orginally...I can not really understand if a card is graded an 8 why it would not be graded an 8 everytime that it is graded (okay...I will give you the .5...therefore you could be off a half point...but certainly not a full point)...and this only happened on 2 of the cards...yes...2 of the 17 not only came back with different grades but came back as 7's...besides these 2 cards and the trimmed/not trimmed issue...I have my concerns...

It's easy to take pot-shots at PSA or Joe...but they are not doing this ON purpose!!! They do not wake-up each day with the motto..."let's try to figure out a way to mess up or wrongly grade a card"...they do care and do try to do the best they can...the problem really is that grading has some "subjectivity" to it...and that part can be argued about...and that is what I am doing...

Joe Orlando is not a villian...without him and what PSA does...where would the value of your cards be? Having said that...I still will argue with him and require PSA to live up to a high standard that I can be comfortable with and feel that the grades that I get are accurate...will that happen? I'm not sure...

Hey if anyone has an idea of how to do it better...please share your ideas...

JMDVM

Hank,I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think they are intentionally out to screw anyone but if I ran my business in such a sloppy fashion I'd eventually be out of business. One thing we need to remember is that a customer oriented business provides good service and quality. Any properly run business will bend over backwards to do this and be transparent about it---100% of the time, not just when it suits them. Keep on plugging at the 64 set,don't quit.

gaspipe26

Henri,
On a whole I think they grade accurately, BUT I and you or any other customer does have more time to examine the card than what they do. I send cards I feel are undergraded back for review and although I get a few changed I have had much better success when I crack out the card and resubmit in a small batch submission. More than 60% upgrades with a few 2 point jumps. This is not for a handful of cards 1 or 2 times either. Its been this way for several years and I keep all the flips with the grades changes written on them. 606 resubmissions with 363 upgrades of which I have had 3- 2 point upgrades. I have also had 4-1 point downgrades as well. These are crackouts not reviews.

K

My best 64 for ya.

briani

Well I have my results back from PSA and they are not good. Earlier I mentioned that I submitted 13 cards for a possible bump up from PSA 9's to PSA 10's. The first time PSA graded the cards they all came back as trimmed. Talked to Joe Orlando about the situation and he had them re-inspected again and regraded. This time 4 came back as PSA 9's and the balance came back again as trimmed. The cert's are all over the map. Some were recently graded within the past couple of months and some had the old print type certs. There has been a problem with the graded for a very long period of time.

After several emails between Joe and myself, Joe writes back to me and says "PSA has no problem here. The cards were reviewed by our graders and that is their decision." I definitely think there is a problem not only with the grading service but the lack of responsibility of Joe Orlando.

You guys can make your own decisions about your collecting standards but I won't be throwing my money away on more trimmed cards. I just dumped my collection in the last few weeks.

Best of luck to you all and your collecting.

SOM

Brian! Say it ain't so!

You're too classy a guy, and too cool of a cat, to quit collecting. Heck...a bunch of my '78 set is thanks to you!

Please sleep on it, and don't bail.

PSA is going through a tough time with their grading right now (see my post on SC&M). But, just like the economy, things will soon get back to normal.

Nick Marnell

HammeringHank

Three months ago I need 12 cards to finish this set...I'm now down to (drum roll please)...the last three cards! During that time I added...six new PSA 10's to the set...so now there are 66 of them in my collection...I counted the other day how many of my cards were 1 of 1's (I hope my memory is correct)...but I believe I have 27 of them in this set 10's as well as some 9's...

I need to thank all of those collectors and dealers that helped me make this possible...and there were many along the way...Rick Faint started me off by selling me his partially completed set...one day I was telling him what a great set he had the next I was buying his almost perfect set...now I don't know whether to thank him...or...well you get the idea...

The best part of all of this...I stopped buying everything else in the my other sets that are not completed yet...the worst part...I became a PSA 9 buyer...and now everything cost me an arm and a leg to buy...

My 63 set is almost done...but it is at 8.78 so there are quite a few 8's in that set...and I'm probably going to be happy to finish it off with 8's...

That's all for now...

Bosox1976

Closing in on it Henri - way to go!

robr1967

Well, like Henri, I am winding down on my 1964 set but first of all not near the quality of his, and I still have 15% to go.

Over the weekend, I was able to pick up nearly 20 cards. So, that brings me down to only needing 81 cards left for my set. This will be the first MAJOR set that I have completed. In the past I put togehter a world class 1955 AA FB set but that was only 100 cards. This is a whopping 587....WOW.

My set will be a minimum of PSA 8's and I am thinking of stopping when I hit 20% of the set in PSA 9s as well. If I remember right, I think I have about 90 PSA 9's already.

My 1955 AA FB set went toward a down payment on my first house, maybe this one well eventually be the money towards a second

Rob Ruth

HECK55

I just read this 64 Topps topic from the beginning - really a lot of things brought to light. Congratulations on building one nice set of 64's. I cannot seem to stay focused on one set and my wife reminds me quite often (the problem is not only with my cards) - I have had what seems like too many cards returned ungraded for different reasons.
Some of these I can find what I missed and PSA was totally correct. Others I have spent hours trying to find what they kicked it back on and never was satisfied with result. I have never resent a card they kicked back and tried to regrade - probably should I guess.
What do some of you do with the cards rejected by PSA? I don't want to unload mine on someone that might want to get them graded but I would think if I put them on Ebay and divulge that PSA rejected them they would probably be close to worthless which maybe they are anyway.
Some of my worst dissapointments were some of my 53 Topps baseball (black box on the bottom mostly) - they say show signs of recoleration. A couple I missed in my early submissions but I think I have a handle on it now and still get nailed sometimes. Do they use a blacklight or some other means other than the naked eye with maybe a loupe?

Thanks - - - Rick (Heck55)

HammeringHank

Rick...

They use a 10 loop magnifying glass...and a black light to see things that cannot be seen by the human eye...I'm not sure I agree with being downgraded for things that can only be seen when you turn a card at a particular angle with a special light...some of the things that can be found are flaws of the printing that occurred many years ago when print standards are not what they are today...the card is still an original as it was produced...I have more problems with dot printing errors but don't seem to down-grade the card...if you are buying cards at a trade show...you need a loop...good luck to everyone!

RonBurgundy

My understanding is most cards are (initially) graded with the naked eye. They use a loupe or black light to check things they see upon that first inspection.




RB

alview

I envy you Hank. I've just started collecting a 64 set. I've been collecting for over 30 years. I started mid to late 70's & collected through the 80's into the early 90's but in 1984 i decided to start collecting older tabacco cards. I guess the price of Mattingly made me decide, he was $65 & I bought a C. Mathewson T-205 for $10. The Mathewson was ungraded but I'd say it was at least a PSA 6 or better. Older cards were much cheaper then. I've collected many different yrs. but always wanted to collect a 64 set because it was the very first set I tried to collect as a kid. I've aways remembered the scratch question on the back. I'm pretty new to graded cards but find it almost necessary nowadays. I've bought some pretty badly graded raw cards off ebay. I have a small collection of T-205's that are graded & have run into many of the same problems as the others are speaking of. I've sent in a number of cards to be graded. I've never cracked a PSA graded card but have cracked a number of other companys graded cards, namely SGC. I do so, so I can put them in my registry set & not because I think PSA is a better grading company, although I think they are more reputable than most & have a bigger registry than others. I haven't had much luck in even getting them to crossover, a few but not many. I often get them returned as re-colored. I find this hard to believe as I think SGC is a pretty reputable company. I don't have many 64's yet but like you would love to collect a set at all 9's (mint), just because it was my first set as a kid. I do have a few 8's & 8.5's. I don't mind the 8.5's but can't help but think they really look as good as any of the 9's I have. I guess my goal if possible would be to have or complete a set that would rate in the top 10 of all sets. That may be a big order but I'll try to take my time & I hope attainable. I hope I don't bump heads with anyone here, if so sorry. I also agree with SMR prices being a bit off...lol at least on the 9's 10's & low pops they are. I have a friend who has gotten with a few friends & bought a PSA graded card, cracked it several times & had it regraded. It went from an 8 to trimmed to 7 to trimmed to 6 to miscut to 7.5 & back to an 8...lol This does concern me as I spend alot of money on my cards. I often wonder if I'm not taking the fun out of collecting baseball cards by collecting only highly graded cards & then if you have to question the company thats grading them. I don't think PSA or at least hope they don't do it on purpose, although I've heard many complaints from others who think they do as a way of getting you to resend them in to be regraded. I do hope they're wrong, but sometimes!!! Anyways good luck Hank on completing your set & I hope we can get a look at it when you're done. Alview

WinPitcher

My understanding is most cards are (initially) graded with the naked eye. They use a loupe or black light to check things they see upon that first inspection.



Yep that is my understanding too.

Steve

HammeringHank

It's been sometime since I updated what is going on with this set...last year in October I had 60 PSA 10's...as of today...I now have 88...many of which are 1 of 1's...

Now it starts getting tough...I only need 6 cards to complete the entire set in 9's or better...the problem is that there is only one #72 PSA 9...and it's in someone else's set...if I am ever able to finish this set I promise to submit an article to PSA as to how it happened...

There are only three #3...so far I only know of it in one set...so the other two are out there somewhere..."hopefully calling my name"...haha...

My goal has not been to make this the best set of all time...all I really would like to do is finish it all in 9's...something no one has done (yet) that I'm aware of...and most likely will never do...

I guess I will have to go work on my 63 set...as I need 139 cards to finish that set...

To all of those that have helped me so far on this set...my sincerest thanks...

I also still need #103...#190...#474...and #528 for those who are going to post..."which cards are you missing"...

Thank you everybody!!

markj111

Good luck with the remaining three.

yankeeno7

Anyone have an exmt Niekro rookie they want to sell? graded or raw but decent centering, no slant?

HammeringHank

Well the set is finally done!! Complete...all PSA 9's and 10's...except one card (a PSA 8)...took six years to do it...but finally done...the goal was complete it all in 9's or better...and now I have to just wait and find the last card...a one of four! It will turn up some day (I hope)...the set is now available to view...at... Henri 1964 Tops #1 set

Thank you for everyone that helped me along the way...wow I'm amazed...it has 103 PSA 10's in it...55 of which are 1 of 1's...not sure how I did it...or why for that matter...it was not to create a #1 set...I thought it would be a blast to be the first to complete the entire set in PSA 9...it's now a one of a kind set...not sure if it could be duplicated as there are some of the 9's that are low pops besides all the 10's I have...

Cost...priceless...and astronomical...

markj111

Congrats! I can take some small measure of pride in the fact that I sold you one 9. Do you have any doubles in 8? I'm curious as to the last card; I assume you are keeping it secret to protect youself. Good luck with it.

HammeringHank

I never collected any 8's...the missing card is #3...I do have 9's that I replaced 10's with...I sold a bunch on ebay the other day...and a few did not go for my asking price...I'm not in the mood to just dump cards...so I'll wait and sell them later...one was a one of six...that no one wanted??

gemint

Congrats Henri, that's quite an accomplishment. Your persistance has paid off and your set should have a good shot at making the HOF, though I'm sure that's not a goal of yours.