1909 MPL reverse dies used on 1910 MPL's.....?

SUMORADA

The top pic is a 1910 MPL (from the diagnostics thread)........the bottom pic is a 1909 MPL PCGS PR64 RD that I received today. Opinions?

curly

Very interesting brother. I think I see a die line off the M and I think I see a very small die line off the tip of the wheat ear.

lasvegasteddy

looks like it to me...i'll have to check my 10' now...well my 10' shows that polish line...i'll have to check my 09' when it arrives...congrats by the way on the new addition there

SUMORADA

Very interesting brother. I think I see a die line off the M and I think I see a very small die line off the tip of the wheat ear.

Thats correct, the easiest diagnostic to see is just below the left leg of the "M" where the two lines cross like an X..........

WaterSport

Not only is this a good research project, but whether any matte dies were used for Business strikes needs to also be sorted out.

WS

SUMORADA

I did some more research on this and found that the 1912 MPL PR65 BN (NGC) that I have also shows the same polish lines...........pic below

So far here is what I have:

I have these in hand.

1. 1909 P business strike (BU)..........CONECA SD-1-R-IV+VIII

2. 1909 P V.D.B business strike (BU)

3. 1909 Matte Proof pcgs PR64 RD..........CONECA SD-1-R-IV+VIII

4. 1910 Matte Proof NGC PR64 BN

5. Diagnostic photos of 1910 MPL's from here on the board by ((LEONARD ALBRECHT)

All of these have the exact same diagnostic

Plus the 1912 MPL from today.



Here is a pic of the CONECA SD-1-R-IV+VIII from the 1909 MPL

ambro51

Here is the quote from Albrecht (1910) Reverse; raised lines from lower left and lower right of M in UNUM are caused by damage to the master die and appear on business strikes as well. However, he scratch from lower inside corner of the M in UNUM is diagnostic of this Proof die."


I doubt "old dies from last year" were ever used. This was after all the Medal Room of the Philadelphia Mint and I think ample security measures prevented re use or continued use of dies from year to year.

SUMORADA

I doubt "old dies from last year" were ever used. This was after all the Medal Room of the Philadelphia Mint and I think ample security measures prevented re use or continued use of dies from year to year.

What I'm saying is that (1) of the master dies from 1909 or (1) or more working hubs from 1909 have this diagnostic, how else could it be explained
that some Business Strikes, Proofs and Varieties from 1909 thru at least 1912 have identical polish lines ?

ambro51

?Dosent the first sentence of his statement say that IS so?

SUMORADA

?Doesn't the first sentence of his statement say that IS so?

Yes it does, I think that what I read here...http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=611034&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1910 matte proof lincoln
gave me the impression that this diagnostic was only on the 1910 MPL's........

On the reverse there is a die scratch extending downward and to the left from the first leg of M in UNUM. A word of caution---Many examples of business strikes exhibit raised lines around the M. This was due to damage on the master die. ONLY matte proofs have the line extending downward from M as pictured below.

Duane

Interesting because the 1909VDB that I have been analyzing has both a) the "M" where the two lines cross like an X (as mentioned in Albrecht), and b) on the other side of the reverse, the die line inside of the "C" in Cent. But I still do not know how to interpret....

Thanks. Explanations welcome.....

Duane

loro1rojo

Wow.. very interesting. I should take a look at my MPL now.

Edit to add: Could it be possible that the polish lines we see around the M were in the master die, thus passed to all dies made from it?

renomedphys

Here's a 100 % crop of the UNUM from my new 1913! Guess Ambro and Sumorada must be right!