Is this an 1859 Philippines Pattern Copper or a Shanghai China sham?

IloiloKano

With such extensive French Fleur De Lis devices, even in the Spanish Crown, I tend to believe it is the latter. Did the Spanish crown incorporate the Fleur De Lis device?

Shanghai, China eBay listing

3Mark

Looks just like the one in Heritage auction archive here and sold for $690 all in. Notice that it was described as lightly cleaned. 3Mark

Daltonista

I've handled a few of these, and although I'm no expert on the type or series, this one looks pretty kosher on the basis of the photos...nice crisp denticles, for example.

Seems to me also that if the seller were a scam artist, his two years of 100% feedback would be harder to counterfeit than the coin, no?

Damn, it's awfully hard to get past that "item location," isn't it?

Best to all ~
Tom

IloiloKano

Well, not just like it, since it appears to have been cleaned some more. Even so, it appears that it was quite well done, since I like its current appearance more than that in Heritage's archives.

Edited to add... Yes, it is difficult to consider a Shanghai numismatist to be on the level, but I'll grant this one appears to be legit.

...and edited to put the smaller image first in line, for easier comparison purposes.

Compare the image from ebay...

To the one from Heritage...

Justhavingfun

Out here in Asia, I recently picked up a spectacular Seated Liberty half dollar. I figured it would grade MS68 if real, and it was a tough date, so I figured it was a 6-figure coin. But to play it safe, I offered the dealer $40 -- and got it. It was such a beautiful counterfeit that PCGS asked permission to keep it for a bit to study it.

All this to preface my comment that this pattern looks like the real thing. It looks to me like a beautiful specimen of a tough coin in the Spanish Filippine series.

Also, the price speaks to the legitimacy of the coin. In my experience, the coins counterfeited are usually worth at least $2,000. And for good reason -- it takes a lot of work to make a good counterfeit, and if you're going to spend so much time, might as well get paid well for it. So the relatively low price speaks in the coin's favor.

Finally, not all Chinese coin dealers are frauds, humbugs, and crooks. This guy, from his copy for the coin, which seems straightforward and honest -- and from his feedback rating -- looks legitimate to me. If I needed the coin, I'd bid on it.

Best wishes,


Just Having Fun

pruebas

Another old thread....

The issue is legit. Minted in Paris, but I don't think in 1859, more likely perhaps the late 1800's. I heard there were many of these available in red unc in Spain in the 1960's, although it could have been an uncovered hoard. They are definitely not rare. They also seem to exist in proof and ms, although I am a bit confused on this.

The Krause section on these Philippine patterns is screwed up beyond belief, so don't rely on that.

About the Chinese seller ("forever223"). I am very suspicious. He has had one or more of this particular Philippine pattern over the last few years. He has a BIN for $1200 right now. I cannot tell if these are all the same coin that is not selling, or a different one each time. And he has had other Latin American copper patterns in high grade as well. The question is how & why do these coins end up in Shanghai? Unless....