Where can I find a clean graded 1952 Topps BB Wax Pack??
Charlie9
Posts: 529 ✭✭
I wrote a thread about this a few weeks ago and decided to try to try to organize a group buy and break of a 1952 Topps Wax Pack at National next month. No need to try to convince me that this is a money losing proposition as I already know that's the case (at least 95% chance of that). I also know that this will be against everything that some of you hold true which is that vintage wax should remain unopened. But I still believe that packs were created to be ripped open just like when we were kids and I want the thrill of opening the pack of all packs and if it costs me a couple hundred to do it then I'd say it's worth it. With 20 participants at about $200-225 we should be able to cover the costs of the pack and grading fees ($4,000 - 4,500). It would be broken at the National show so as many participants that can make it would be invited to participate and we'd post on Youtube as well. The cards would be handed directly over to PSA for grading and all cards would be sold soon after and proceeds split amongst the 20 participants. I figure at worst it's a $100-125 loss and at best... who knows?
So I'm not trying to convince anyone to participate at this point as I first have to find out if there is a clean pack out there to purchase. That's my question to all those out there...does anyone know of a PSA graded pack that is on the market? I know Steve has one on commission but it's at $5,500 and is priced too high. I'm looking for something around $4K in a PSA 6-7 range. Think it's possible to find one within the next month?
So I'm not trying to convince anyone to participate at this point as I first have to find out if there is a clean pack out there to purchase. That's my question to all those out there...does anyone know of a PSA graded pack that is on the market? I know Steve has one on commission but it's at $5,500 and is priced too high. I'm looking for something around $4K in a PSA 6-7 range. Think it's possible to find one within the next month?
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Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
there is no joy in looking at a closed pack
<< <i>I don't get the idea of closed packs.. or why people want them
there is no joy in looking at a closed pack >>
I wouldn't go that far as some unopened pack collections are pretty awesome to see but for me half the excitement in seeing these collections is the mystery of what could lie within. I'd have to rip...
And thanks for the link to the pack but that's the one that Steve has on commission so $5.5K is a bit pricey for a PSA 6...I'll keep looking.
<< <i>there is no joy in looking at a closed pack >>
I'll disagree with that- I love the look of a pack display. The graphics are very indicative of the time and a decent pack run always displays well.
I'm sorry I've posted this before, but to me this is a lot more interesting to look at than a binder on a shelf or a box of cards tombed in plastic.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i><< there is no joy in looking at a closed pack >>
I'll disagree with that- I love the look of a pack display. The graphics are very indicative of the time and a decent pack run always displays well.
I'm sorry I've posted this before, but to me this is a lot more interesting to look at than a binder on a shelf or a box of cards tombed in plastic. >>
Very nice
I love it!
I'm not too knowledgable on packs. I think those are Red Man cards. Unopened packs right? The card has plastic around it and the pouch or...?
<< <i>I wrote a thread about this a few weeks ago and decided to try to try to organize a group buy and break of a 1952 Topps Wax Pack at National next month. No need to try to convince me that this is a money losing proposition as I already know that's the case (at least 95% chance of that). I also know that this will be against everything that some of you hold true which is that vintage wax should remain unopened. But I still believe that packs were created to be ripped open just like when we were kids and I want the thrill of opening the pack of all packs and if it costs me a couple hundred to do it then I'd say it's worth it. With 20 participants at about $200-225 we should be able to cover the costs of the pack and grading fees ($4,000 - 4,500). It would be broken at the National show so as many participants that can make it would be invited to participate and we'd post on Youtube as well. The cards would be handed directly over to PSA for grading and all cards would be sold soon after and proceeds split amongst the 20 participants. I figure at worst it's a $100-125 loss and at best... who knows?
So I'm not trying to convince anyone to participate at this point as I first have to find out if there is a clean pack out there to purchase. That's my question to all those out there...does anyone know of a PSA graded pack that is on the market? I know Steve has one on commission but it's at $5,500 and is priced too high. I'm looking for something around $4K in a PSA 6-7 range. Think it's possible to find one within the next month? >>
I'd join in for a few hundred bucks or even more, maybe a lot more depending on the situation, but not on any pack from any dealer. It would have to be on a pack auctioned by a reputable auction company from a publicized legitimate estate - Yes, it would cost more money but I'd rather pay more to have extra confidence that the pack is genuine.
Also, sorry to say this, but I'm not gonna PayPal $200 to $2,000 or so to anybody posting on an internet forum with possible exceptions such as Mike (Stone) or Steve (WinPitcher) who posts here - not after the "Gary incident" - if you're gonna setup payments it should be to an attorney who would handle the money - he might charge a 10% or so fee, but at least the money wouldn't be absconded with.
<< <i>Griffins- Saw your display here and I think it was on a Yahoo or ebay wax group. Very nice. If I had the $$ I would own something just like that. Lets the imagination run wild with thoughts of "What if...."
I'm not too knowledgable on packs. I think those are Red Man cards. Unopened packs right? The card has plastic around it and the pouch or...? >>
not only that , it APPEARS he also has an unopened turkey red pack and old fez pack. I would smoke the butts inside
SWEEEEEET display, thanks for the pic!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What, no Jerry?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
ebay i.d. clydecoolidge - Lots of vintage stars and HOFers, raw, condition fully disclosed.
ebay i.d. clydecoolidge - Lots of vintage stars and HOFers, raw, condition fully disclosed.
<< <i>Also, sorry to say this, but I'm not gonna PayPal $200 to $2,000 or so to anybody posting on an internet forum with possible exceptions such as Mike (Stone) or Steve (WinPitcher) who posts here
What, no Jerry?
Wouldn't hesitate with you for a second - seriously.
$6K pack.
100 shares.
$60.00 per share.
Just need to figure an easy way for everybody to pay the vendor/auctioneer direct.
Cards opened near PSA booth.
Cards go straight from PSA to the chosen auction house.
Checks disbursed from the auction house to the shareholders.
A Great way to likely turn $60 into $30.
But, fun.
<< <i>It is unlikely to make money, but would make a good YOUTUBE from the National.
$6K pack.
100 shares.
$60.00 per share.
Just need to figure an easy way for everybody to pay the vendor/auctioneer direct.
Cards opened near PSA booth.
Cards go straight from PSA to the chosen auction house.
Checks disbursed from the auction house to the shareholders.
A Great way to likely turn $60 into $30.
But, fun.
<<< A Great way to likely turn $60 into $30. >>>
Your right of course, but what if that PSA 9 Mantle is sitting there waiting for us?
In answer to questions, there are two unopened Redman packs there, but the Turkey Red and Fez packs are empty.
While I'd hate to see any semi vintage pack get opened, it would be pretty exciting to see a '52 pack busted. Not to mention making unopened packs that much scarcer!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'd join in for a few hundred bucks or even more, maybe a lot more depending on the situation, but not on any pack from any dealer. It would have to be on a pack auctioned by a reputable auction company from a publicized legitimate estate - Yes, it would cost more money but I'd rather pay more to have extra confidence that the pack is genuine.
Also, sorry to say this, but I'm not gonna PayPal $200 to $2,000 or so to anybody posting on an internet forum with possible exceptions such as Mike (Stone) or Steve (WinPitcher) who posts here - not after the "Gary incident" - if you're gonna setup payments it should be to an attorney who would handle the money - he might charge a 10% or so fee, but at least the money wouldn't be absconded with. >>
Understandable and I'm not looking to recruit for this as I think I already have my "group of investors" that already know me...not to say that I may be asking here later if some choose to back out but if I am asking for recruits I'll bring all my references and details to the table and if that isn't sufficient I'll certainly understand. I also agree that I don't want just any pack but one I can trust so while I'm looking for anything on the market to start with I'll want to find out more about it than just that it's for sale.
Anybody else with any leads on one of these...?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'd join in for a few hundred bucks or even more, maybe a lot more depending on the situation, but not on any pack from any dealer. It would have to be on a pack auctioned by a reputable auction company from a publicized legitimate estate - Yes, it would cost more money but I'd rather pay more to have extra confidence that the pack is genuine.
Also, sorry to say this, but I'm not gonna PayPal $200 to $2,000 or so to anybody posting on an internet forum with possible exceptions such as Mike (Stone) or Steve (WinPitcher) who posts here - not after the "Gary incident" - if you're gonna setup payments it should be to an attorney who would handle the money - he might charge a 10% or so fee, but at least the money wouldn't be absconded with. >>
Understandable and I'm not looking to recruit for this as I think I already have my "group of investors" that already know me...not to say that I may be asking here later if some choose to back out but if I am asking for recruits I'll bring all my references and details to the table and if that isn't sufficient I'll certainly understand. I also agree that I don't want just any pack but one I can trust so while I'm looking for anything on the market to start with I'll want to find out more about it than just that it's for sale.
Anybody else with any leads on one of these...? >>
Of course I wasn't knocking you personally, but speaking about anyone basically unknown on an internet forum - I'm not sure that "references" would really matter.
I thought that Storm's idea was basically a good idea. I'm definitely in if anyone can figure this out. But let's not be "stupid" about it...let's look at this as a business venture, that could even become an ongoing venture, analyzing high priced waxpacks, with the idea that possibly in certain situations the odds could be in our favor on a number of busts, and we could make some money on it. Naturally if any collector has an affinity for one of the busted cards, they can purchase it accordingly.
I sincerely doubt that there would be any opportunity whatsoever for any profit with any product offered from a dealer - and frankly I believe it would only be aggravating - I mean just look at the busts posted here on 70's packs...losers galore...so why should 50's or 60's packs be any different and I strongly feel 50's or 60's pack busts bought from dealers would be even worse, much worse.
I think we would have to analyze good, legitimate auctions and perhaps decide by group vote whether the auction is worth a shot, and what average price we would be willing to pay. I think it would be fun, maybe make some money, but even if we didn't make money and broke about even, it would still be entertaining.
<< <i>I
A Great way to likely turn $60 into $30.
But, fun.
$60 into $30??? That is being very, very optimistic. Joe Orlando wrote up an identical situation (someone busting a pack at the PSA table). Got 3 or 5 VgEx or Ex cards. Let's say 5, I forget, at 100 shares, that'll be $60 into $1. Seriously.
<< <i>
<< <i>I
A Great way to likely turn $60 into $30.
But, fun.
$60 into $30??? That is being very, very optimistic. Joe Orlando wrote up an identical situation (someone busting a pack at the PSA table). Got 3 or 5 VgEx or Ex cards. Let's say 5, I forget, at 100 shares, that'll be $60 into $1. Seriously. >>
Point taken, but what about that ebay sale of those 1964 Topps Stand-Ups box of unopened packs that was bought off ebay for I think around $12,000 and quickly flipped for a lot more money. There was a long thread here about that, and something such as that would have been an interesting prospect for the "group" to consider buying.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Since you bring up the on-going proposition of vintage pack breaks, I'll mention my other thought. I currently run a "Boxbreaker" group in which we break about $3K worth of modern boxes/cases each month ranging from 2003-2008 and we divide up by teams so it's mostly made up of team collectors (FB, BB, and BK). My idea was to expand this to include a vintage group not divided up by teams but by card position in the pack. For 16 participants to pony up $78 each month we'd have about $1200 (allowing $3 for paypal/shipping fees) to spend on vintage packs getting everybody either 2-3 cards depending on range of product. Card slots would be drawn for randomly prior to the pack being opened. The packs would all be PSA graded and most likely all purchased through Steve or a major auction house if the timing was right. Those are my initial toughts...it's a tough sell to say $78 will get you 2 cards when my current group gets a stack for $40 but obviously the potential payoff is that much more great, plus the fun that participants have is a factor even when they're not present as we'd do all on youtube with the name drawings right before each card is revealed...it's a slightly spendy but fun proposition.
I only bring this up because it's only in the "thinking stage" and I'm open to ideas of other ways to run this without costing the participants over $100 monthly as many in my group (including me) are not heavy spenders like some of you out there might be (not that there's anything wrong with that).
The 52T pack however would be a different venture though that I would put out there as an "experience" rather than an "investment" so I think I could get the backing from my current group if I can come up with the right pack at the right price. If someone else on these boards considers doing something similiar I encourage them to do so and to post youtube and any related info back on these boards so all can share in the excitement of a rip-of-a-lifetime.
<< <i>How many cards in a 1952 pack? >>
If I recall, it's 6 per pack. SMR had a story about Ron Hobbs who had opened a '52 pack at last year's national. I don't have the article in front of me but I think he got one PSA 8 (Wayne Terwilliger) with the rest being 7 or lower, one having an 'ST' qualifier. The value of the resulting cards was probably $250-$350. It was a series one pack.
<< <i>Actually the box of '64 standups was bought by Mastro (actually a Mastro employee, Mark Theotikos, either for them or himself) for considerably more than that (24K), and then sold for even more in their catalog (about 36K with bp). The winner then immediately flooded the market with them and took a big loss. >>
Oh that's interesting about the "big loss" - I hadn't heard about that. Maybe most collectors realized that despite the interest in perhaps owning an unopened pack of this card, that the card inside, according to the info posted on that thread, was basically "worthless" due to gum damage.
<< <i>
<< <i>How many cards in a 1952 pack? >>
If I recall, it's 6 per pack. SMR had a story about Ron Hobbs who had opened a '52 pack at last year's national. I don't have the article in front of me but I think he got one PSA 8 (Wayne Terwilliger) with the rest being 7 or lower, one having an 'ST' qualifier. The value of the resulting cards was probably $250-$350. It was a series one pack. >>
a psa 8 terwilliger goes in the $1800 to $3000 range.
there are 6 cards in a 5 cent 1952 topps pack.
<< <i><< Actually the box of '64 standups was bought by Mastro (actually a Mastro employee, Mark Theotikos, either for them or himself) for considerably more than that (24K), and then sold for even more in their catalog (about 36K with bp). The winner then immediately flooded the market with them and took a big loss. >>
Oh that's interesting about the "big loss" - I hadn't heard about that. Maybe most collectors realized that despite the interest in perhaps owning an unopened pack of this card, that the card inside, according to the info posted on that thread, was basically "worthless" due to gum damage.
>>
actually it had nothing to due with the realization but the fact that the buyer somehow thought it was a good idea to sell them 40 at a time in individual auctions. if he took his time selling them and marketing them correctly and doing some private deals , he would have done ok even at the mastro price.
I was the underbidder when it was on ebay and it sold for $25,655 . It went for 36k in mastro, I bid the same as the ebay there so there were 2 more bidders over 26k in mastro including the winner.
even being an idiot in his selling approach , I think he netted around 30k individually.
///////////////////////////////////////
Am I correct in thinking that there is no way to KNOW the
series UNTIL the 1952 pack is opened?
If so, this makes the hunt for Mick even more problematic.
<< <i>
<< <i><< Actually the box of '64 standups was bought by Mastro (actually a Mastro employee, Mark Theotikos, either for them or himself) for considerably more than that (24K), and then sold for even more in their catalog (about 36K with bp). The winner then immediately flooded the market with them and took a big loss. >>
Oh that's interesting about the "big loss" - I hadn't heard about that. Maybe most collectors realized that despite the interest in perhaps owning an unopened pack of this card, that the card inside, according to the info posted on that thread, was basically "worthless" due to gum damage.
>>
actually it had nothing to due with the realization but the fact that the buyer somehow thought it was a good idea to sell them 40 at a time in individual auctions. if he took his time selling them and marketing them correctly and doing some private deals , he would have done ok even at the mastro price.
I was the underbidder when it was on ebay and it sold for $25,655 . It went for 36k in mastro, I bid the same as the ebay there so there were 2 more bidders over 26k in mastro including the winner.
even being an idiot in his selling approach , I think he netted around 30k individually. >>
Yeah, he was auctioning them off 10-15 at a time, and auctioning off star packs with doubles (same star) on some of the Packs, at the same time. The 2nd and 3rd, 4rth go-around saw the packs drop significantly in Price (GAI 9 packs were going for less than $200, these packs were NEVER seen before this find). I was the underbidder (runner-up) on Many packs. Still the packs I won were REALLY nice, and I think the people that won some AFTER the initial offering (when they were broken up) made out quite well.
<< <i>"...It was a series one pack. >>"
///////////////////////////////////////
Am I correct in thinking that there is no way to KNOW the
series UNTIL the 1952 pack is opened?
If so, this makes the hunt for Mick even more problematic. >>
At the risk of another "stupid question" LOL, that was in the title of another thread, I always wondered with all the various "scientific" equipment" on the marketplace today, if there isn't something out there that could basically "see through" the wax, not necessarily to take a clear picture, but to create some sort of image to basically determine what the top card is, centering, corner condition, etc. I believe some of those 50's wax packs can be seen through with the naked eye anyway. I guess there's nothing out there or it would be well known by now, but still I've always wondered...I'm involved in the computer graphics printing business and I have an extensive background in cameras, photography, etc., and certainly understand the limitations involved with having "Superman's" x-ray vision - LOL.
I know on some packs you can see enough of the card to tell who it is, and from that ascertain the series. On other packs the wrappers can be different from series to series, so it's possible to tell that way.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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i know there is a board member here who know the pattern of the high numbers. i dont know if he realizes it or not but he knows it. for the life of me i cannot remember the board member's name. i know he opened the packs as a kid and he actually remembers the sequence of who is in the pack with the mantle.
there is no indications anywhere on the pack to indicate which series the pack is from. i believe with wax this old, there is a chance that you can see either the front card or the back card which should be able to tell you what series it is. the majority of the remaining packs still around are from the first series. this is the next best series after the high series of course. a psa 8 pafko #1 is almost a $100,000 card in todays market. the following is my estimates of what some of the tougher psa 8s from the first series would bring on the open market...
#1 pafko @ $100,000
#2 runnels @ $12,000
#9 hogue @ $2,500
#10 rosen @ $3,500
#11 rizzuto @ $3,500
#20 loes @ $3,500
#22 dimaggio @ $5,000
#32 robinson @ $3,000
#33 spahn @ $2,000
#36 hodges @ $2,000
#37 snider @ $2,000
#42 kretlow @ $2,000
#48 page/sain back error @ $5,000 - $15,000
#49 sain/page back error @ $15,000
#70 zarilla @ $3,000
#80 wehmeier @ $5,000
there are alot of cards which would be in the $1,000 range which i didnt list.
I also agree that it's a tough proposition to say that nobody gets to keep the cards (unless they want to buy one), but the only way to do that is to up the price from $200 to $1200 or so and divide it up by card position. I'm not in the position to do that so I'll just pay for the experience even if it means I don't actually get to keep the cards.
My .02...
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what price tag to put of the "entertainment value" based on the level of experience (are they the one opening it, are they present but not physically opening it, are they watching on Youtube, or do they just see the scans after the fact here on the boards). There's no right or wrong answer...just opinions on whether the situation would be right for them personally. I for one would be up for putting up $200 to be present (even if I'm not the one opening) so the only question is can I find another 25 people that would be willing to do this. No I'm not fishing for answers on this as I have to find a reasonable pack first but I believe I can get the backing so the quest now is to find a legitimate pack to go after.
Any leads on any would be appreciated...
edited to add... to answer the op orginal question, i would think the only place to find a good pack to break would be a major auction house. maybe mark murphy has a few packs left from that 84 pack lot he came across years back. they were all first series packs i believe.
edited again to add a link to the story of mr. ron hobbs opening a 1952 topps pack at the 2007 national.
link
here is a link to mark murphy's 84 pack find...
84 packs of 1952 topps