poppage- what the hell does "Altered Stock" mean?

CDsNuts

My worst sub in a long time. Can anybody shed some light on Altered Stock? Nothing stood out as wierd to me on these cards, except the Jordan sticker had some stuff going on on the back.

1 1 15287856 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 15 TOM CHAMBERS Card US
2 1 15287857 N5: ALTERED STOCK 1986 FLEER 26 CLYDE DREXLER Card US
3 1 15287858 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 30 ALEX ENGLISH Card US
4 1 15287859 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 36 GEORGE GERVIN Card US
5 1 15287860 NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1986 FLEER 53 MAGIC JOHNSON Card US
6 1 15287861 GEM MINT 10 1986 FLEER 54 MARQUES JOHNSON Card US
7 1 15287862 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 56 VINNIE JOHNSON Card US
8 1 15287863 N5: ALTERED STOCK 1986 FLEER 57 MICHAEL JORDAN Card US
9 1 15287864 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 58 CLARK KELLOGG Card US
10 1 15287865 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 59 ALBERT KING Card US
11 1 15287866 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 66 MAURICE LUCAS Card US
12 1 15287867 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 80 NORM NIXON Card US
13 1 15287868 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 89 KURT RAMBIS Card US
14 1 15287869 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 100 PURVIS SHORT Card US
15 1 15287870 N5: ALTERED STOCK 1986 FLEER 121 DOMINIQUE WILKINS Card US
16 1 15287871 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 128 AL WOOD Card US
17 1 15287872 MINT 9 1986 FLEER 130 ORLANDO WOOLRIDGE Card US
18 1 15287873 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1986 FLEER 132 CHECKLIST 1-132 Card US
19 1 15287874 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1986 FLEER STICKER 1 KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR Card US
20 1 15287875 MINT 9 1986 FLEER STICKER 3 ADRIAN DANTLEY Card US
21 1 15287876 MINT 9 1986 FLEER STICKER 4 ALEX ENGLISH Card US
22 1 15287877 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1986 FLEER STICKER 5 JULIUS ERVING Card US
23 1 15287878 MINT 9 1986 FLEER STICKER 7 MAGIC JOHNSON Card US
24 1 15287879 N5: ALTERED STOCK 1986 FLEER STICKER 8 MICHAEL JORDAN Card US
25 1 15287880 MINT 9 1986 FLEER STICKER 9 AKEEM OLAJUWON Card US
26 1 15287881 NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1984 TOPPS 123 DAN MARINO Card US
27 1 15287882 MINT 9 1977 TOPPS 144 BRUCE SUTTER Card US
28 1 15287883 GEM MINT 10 1985 TOPPS 84 KIRK MULLER Card US
29 1 15287884 MINT 9 1984 O-PEE-CHEE 97 DINO CICCARELLI Card US

WinPitcher

Corners re built?

That sort of thing.

figures it was the Jordan.

Steve

MeteoriteGuy

I think that means your stock car has a restrictor plate, if so no worries. It means you get a little better gas mileage and everyone goes the same speed.

CDsNuts

Steve, that's the only thing I can think of, but there's no way that the Drexler or Nique had anything like that going on. It's pretty obvious to tell if anything's fishy on an 86 Fleer through a loupe, and I don't send these in unless I think they are probably 9s. I can't wait to get them back.

SDavid

It means you got a newbie grader. It happened to me too on a $5 special...just resubmit and I guarantee you it will grade.

CDsNuts

N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

Damn, they're on to my card-stretching scheme.

BobaFett72

altered stock seems to be the flavor of the month.

nam812

If they're saying that recoloring falls under altered stock, then that's what I'd look for first since recoloring is a big possibility with 86 Fleer basketball.

detroitfan2

Lee,

Received an N5 on this Kaline on my first ever submission. I bought Al in 1991 from an SCD mail order (long before altering started, or so I thought). I may try one more submission at some point.

-Tom

storm888

"...crease or wrinkle is pressed out, ..."

//////////////////////////////////////////

Because it is the easiest "alteration," it is likely the most common.

"Spooning" was routinely done by MAJOR auction houses for MANY years.
Most all say they "don't do that anymore."

Thumb pressure near a micro-wrinkle can appear the be a "spoon impression."
If spooning is done right with a plastic spoon or a rubber hammer, there is
no impression. The wrinkle goes away; but, is 50/50 likely to return in a
year or more.

I would resubmit almost any card that came back altered, if I knew the
history of the card.

LakersFAN

funny thing, i sent in a few cards and my grades popped today and they are all evidence of trim, last month i sent the same card in and got an 8.....now its trimmed?...haha......i thought an 8 was just a bit low, so i tried my luck and now look at me, a trimmed card and 14 bucks down the drain...lol......i dont get it, oh well better luck next time maybe?

scooter729

<< <i>Lee,

Received an N5 on this Kaline on my first ever submission. I bought Al in 1991 from an SCD mail order (long before altering started, or so I thought). I may try one more submission at some point. >>



-Tom

Strange as it seems, 1991 might have been the hey-day for card altering. There was no 3rd party grading at the time, so there was a LOT more trimming and re-coloring of cards going on than we all realized. So don't assume it's clean simply because it was bought in '91.

(FWIW it looks good to me, and I hope it grades for you!)

storm888

"...So don't assume it's clean simply because it was bought in '91. ..."

//////////////////////////////////////////

I met my first card-doctor in 1985. He was a currency-doctor, who simply branched out.

"Altering" currency was, for a VERY long time, NOT considered a bad thing.

Often quoted section from PCGS Currency grading-standards:

"In the 1970s and early 1980s many uncirculated notes were pressed out flat as a board to remove the original paper wave and embossing that, at the time, was considered a “defect.” Today, while the proponents of paper originality and embossing seem to be in the majority, this may not always be the case. How one approaches this problem is the basis for a reasonable and consistent grading standard. To ignore the problem would be a disservice to those in the marketplace who currently value originality. To place too much blame or detraction upon those notes that are truly beautiful and highly collectible, yet are not wholly original, would be a disservice. Many estimates of the numbers of large size type notes that have been restored in some fashion or another run so high that the supply of truly original notes might be so low as to preclude their collectibilty."

.....................................

To think that there are not ALOT of worked cards out there is silly.

detroitfan2

scooter,

You have some interesting points regarding card doctoring prior to the advent of 3rd party grading. People were less likely to get caught without professional grading, but also there wasn't as big of a premium for card condition back then. I think, if this makes sense, it wasn't as much of an ethical issue. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

In any case, thanks for the feedback.

-Tom

fkw

Most trimmed vintage cards were trimmed many years before grading came around. As late as 1980 some oldschool collectors used to trim the top and bottom of some of the larger E cards (ie. E90-1) so they would fit into the tobacco card size plastic pages. There were some very nice large collections where a high % of the cards were trimmed this way. Many vintage cards were trimmed not to fool someone into thinking it was a sharper card, but just to make it slightly smaller for the pages. Remember many T and E cards were worth only $1-$5 in the late 1970s-early 80's, so no one thought much about doing this, now the same cards (untrimmed) sell for $100-$500 all the time.

As far as your cards I cant help you, PSA should do the right thing and actually write one sentence and explain what they found. it take 10 seconds, now you and other who use their service have to try to GUESS whats wrong with a card that looks good to the naked eye. There is so much room for improvement in customer service with these grading companies. Not many companies can get away with the crap they do, they take your $$ for a service and then dont do what they were paid to do and then wont tell you exactly why..........

mkg809

Spooning leads to forking.



Seriously though, if altered stock could mean trimming, then what is the difference between that and evidence of trimming?

stown

Lee,

You really need to stop submitting altered cards to PSA.

Glad they caught you....





























































this time around.

detroitfan2

<<Seriously though, if altered stock could mean trimming, then what is the difference between that and evidence of trimming?>>

I have been wondering the same thing (whenever I have time to wonder).

bigred1

I will have to trying "spooning" on my wife, never knew it would work on wrinkles.