<< <i>Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards. It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)
It wouldn't surprise me if that coin was returned and you see it offered again. Of course, there are some buyers that just need the coin so bad (and have the money to burn) for their registry set, that they do not care about the coin in the holder. Anyone that pays the higher current prices for business strike moderns graded 5 years ago is not getting their $ worth. That coin may also be a candidate for the PCGS guarantee. PCGS created a major liability when they changed their grading standards a few years ago, as every coin previously graded is now below todays standards (on average about 2 points). It pays to be picky when buying these coins. In short...buy the coin, not the plastic.
Look - the bottom line is the coin was a very weak MS67 when it was graded 5 years ago - that is a given. If it is the coin I am thinking of, the one I kept for my set blew it away and they were both graded around the same time - is that right?
But, keep in mind, even back in 2003, when you sold it for "$700", you were pricing it as an MS67 plain and simple (an MS66 was about a $30 coin back then), however low end it may have been for the grade - even back then the insert "spoke for itself" - right? The new level is insane IMHO for that particular coin if it is the coin I recall - I agree with you Jamie. But, the "song remains the same" from even back in 2003 - only the numbers have now changed dramatically. Back then, the coin fetched 20x-25x above the MS66 grade. Now, it is around 50x - quality has not changed at either time.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Hi Justin. I actually was selling the MS66's for about $75/125 (wholesale/retail) back then...and the MS67 was definitely low end and priced accordingly (plastic price). A properly graded one with nice eye-appeal even back then may well have sold for $2000+ (at that time it was a POP 2/1). When I heard about the one on Teletrade, I thought it was a fresh coin...so it didn't seem too far out of line for it considering the current market. But when I saw it was the one I graded, I thought ...Yikes! The Teletrade picture made that coin look nicer than it will look in hand. You know and have always sought out properly graded and even PQ examples for your collection and clients. Over-graded fillers purchased at an appropriate discount are just place holders until replacements can be found. PCGS should really get this one off the market.
That's NOT a recored price for a Kennedy. Lok at the 64-D in MS 68. How about a $15,000 Kennedy? VERY pretty coin indeed! Used to be Richard's coin. Ray
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
that is a 67? lol. i agree it better look better then the pics. to me that is a 65 based on the pics.
"<< Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards. It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)"
hahahaha 64. I was wrong. wondercoin is that what you plan to sell in the future during the explosion?
<< <i>I won't tell you what grade holder I was first offered the 64-D MS68 coin - it would only make fc's week!
Wondercoin >>
with the see-saw gradeflation these last few years, I'd say MS66 >>
It is a pretty coin, no doubts about that. But i cannot even begin to guess its grade with all that toning covering everything. Looks sharp though.
I wonder if the nice toning, AT? or NT, gave it a significant bump?
But in the end, just discussing the coin in this fashion leads me to think that top pops in many cases is a joke. Just look at the thread I created and how people here, who many trust, stated that many top pops are anything but.
I wonder which dealers sell these and pull the wool over some people's eyes? hm.
that is a 67? lol. i agree it better look better then the pics. to me that is a 65 based on the pics.
"<< Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards. It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)"
hahahaha 64. I was wrong. wondercoin is that what you plan to sell in the future during the explosion?
haha >>
I have at least 10 that look just as good if not better, Will trade for gold..
Im glad that finger print by the date didn't hinder the grade.. Or the weak strike in united, or the T in states, or the lack of detail in the shield, or the obvious marks on the cheek, or even the hair lined fields....
Wait a minute, thats not my coin... MS65 tops..Who was the first owner? I wonder, who is that guy on cheers? clavin ball.. Dr. Frasier thats it.
Humblepie
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
<< <i>fc: If you only knew the stories on some of the classics.
I don't read your posts - do you bash pop top classics equally?
Wondercoin >>
yes, the same things apply to classics. i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers read it.
yes, the same things apply to classics. i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers read it.
we agree to disagree. >>
I don't know WonderCoin's business except that he has a sterling reputation and I sure know one doesn't obtain this while treating customers like pawns to make a buck. It really sounds like, at least in this case, you're not agreeing to disagree.
yes, the same things apply to classics. i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers read it.
we agree to disagree. >>
I don't know WonderCoin's business except that he has a sterling reputation and I sure know one doesn't obtain this while treating customers like pawns to make a buck. It really sounds like, at least in this case, you're not agreeing to disagree. >>
a sterling reputation to deliver what one sold hardly makes for a reputable dealer. a reputable honest dealer has many more qualites to earn that in my book.
a few people in this thread stated that the coin in the first post, based on the pics was not a 67. wondercoin was not one of them even though he should have stated it in my mind.
along comes not just a previous owner but the submitter of the coin and states he thinks someone paid a lot of money for the plastic.
"If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic!"
wondercoin on the other hand states this:
"These great early MS kennedys don't get any easier to slab - they get tougher and tougher and, hence, more valuable IMHO."
avoids the whole topic of whether or not the coin is graded correctly only caring about the label stating 67. Failing to realize his message is basically stating if that coin was cracked out in this tougher and tougher environment the coin would grade much lower.
draw your own conclusions! think about it. buy the coin and not the plastic. the dealers who deal in top pop moderns will gladly sell these tombed duds as the finest known for registry set players. yes some of the coins they sell may very well be correctly graded and knock outs, but when you see people getting all happy about the sale price of a 65 Kennedy in 67 plastic with very few people stating reality of the situation you really have to wonder who is being honest and deserves a sterling reputation.
fc: Who said I do not like you? I sure didn't? I simply asked if you bash classics equally and you said you do. Great. That helps me understand where you are coming from. Let's just all try to follow the clear rules of this forum - to respect the collecting interests of other collectors and to write respectful posts concerning fellow dealers and collectors - I'll do the same.
Regarding the coin in this thread - I think Telecoin (Jamie) is totally wrong with his assessment of the grade of the coin (MS64) (no biggie - I still think he is a great dealer). Could the coin regrade MS66 on a different day - probably IMHO (as many classics could drop a point or go up a point on a different day as well). Also, I have generally not sold MS pop top Kennedys in years nor do I plan to sell any coins any time soon (to the dissapointment of a few collectors who have asked that I consider selling off my entire set). I did mention that the last 1966 MS67 I sold for around $2,000 is now worth $6,000+ so it seems (no unhappy customer there). MS Kennedys are on the move up IMHO though. This is just the start I believe.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand this game I have a Ms 1966 and it looks like a 70 to me. Maybe I will send off to SEGS and get it verified!!
Isn't SEGS pop for MS 70's for this year like 1/3,000, hell there were millions made, I should make out just fine.
After reading your statement, I have to wonder if you even know what a MS60 coin looks like, let alone a MS70
Or maybe it is just that the TROLLS come out of the wood work on any type of thread
JMHO >>
YHO is MHO, IMHO. Trolls is trolls.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards.
It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)
The rest would go for early gold.
Look - the bottom line is the coin was a very weak MS67 when it was graded 5 years ago - that is a given. If it is the coin I am thinking of, the one I kept for my set blew it away and they were both graded around the same time - is that right?
But, keep in mind, even back in 2003, when you sold it for "$700", you were pricing it as an MS67 plain and simple (an MS66 was about a $30 coin back then), however low end it may have been for the grade - even back then the insert "spoke for itself" - right? The new level is insane IMHO for that particular coin if it is the coin I recall - I agree with you Jamie. But, the "song remains the same" from even back in 2003 - only the numbers have now changed dramatically. Back then, the coin fetched 20x-25x above the MS66 grade. Now, it is around 50x - quality has not changed at either time.
Wondercoin
I actually was selling the MS66's for about $75/125 (wholesale/retail) back then...and the MS67 was definitely low end and priced accordingly (plastic price). A properly graded one with nice eye-appeal even back then may well have sold for $2000+ (at that time it was a POP 2/1).
When I heard about the one on Teletrade, I thought it was a fresh coin...so it didn't seem too far out of line for it considering the current market. But when I saw it was the one I graded, I thought ...Yikes! The Teletrade picture made that coin look nicer than it will look in hand.
You know and have always sought out properly graded and even PQ examples for your collection and clients. Over-graded fillers purchased at an appropriate discount are just place holders until replacements can be found. PCGS should really get this one off the market.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>I hope it looks better than the pics:
that is a 67? lol. i agree it better look better then the pics.
to me that is a 65 based on the pics.
"<< Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards.
It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)"
hahahaha
64. I was wrong.
wondercoin is that what you plan to sell in the future during the explosion?
haha
<< <i>That's NOT a recored price for a Kennedy. Lok at the 64-D in MS 68. How about a $15,000 Kennedy? >>
Note I said record price for an MS67 Kennedy.
Russ, NCNE
Wondercoin
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I won't tell you what grade holder I was first offered the 64-D MS68 coin - it would only make fc's week!
Wondercoin >>
with the see-saw gradeflation these last few years, I'd say MS66
Russ, NCNE
Woindercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>I won't tell you what grade holder I was first offered the 64-D MS68 coin - it would only make fc's week!
Wondercoin >>
with the see-saw gradeflation these last few years, I'd say MS66 >>
It is a pretty coin, no doubts about that. But i cannot even begin to guess its
grade with all that toning covering everything. Looks sharp though.
I wonder if the nice toning, AT?
But in the end, just discussing the coin in this fashion leads me to think that
top pops in many cases is a joke. Just look at the thread I created and how
people here, who many trust, stated that many top pops are anything but.
I wonder which dealers sell these and pull the wool over some people's eyes?
hm.
I don't read your posts - do you bash pop top classics equally?
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope it looks better than the pics:
that is a 67? lol. i agree it better look better then the pics.
to me that is a 65 based on the pics.
"<< Well hello old friend...Its been a long time since I've seen you. I graded that coin (along with 3 1967's in MS67) on one invoice back in Jan '03. I have pictures of it along with one of the 1967's on my website. I sold it for a mere $700 back then. Not a bad increase in just 5 years. Shortly after that submission, PCGS began calling everything SMS and changed their grading standards.
It was actually kind of hazy (from being in a PVC flip submission holder) and had more contact than most would be comfortable with...but that was then and this is now. It appears to be in the same holder so I doubt it was "conserved", so I imagine the picture is actually a bit nicer than in hand. If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic! >>
wow! are you saying the buyer got hosed with an overgraded dog? Being that you used to own the coin, i wonder what flaws it has that it doesn't deserve the grade (aside from the excessive chatter on the reverse shield)"
hahahaha
64. I was wrong.
wondercoin is that what you plan to sell in the future during the explosion?
haha >>
I have at least 10 that look just as good if not better, Will trade for gold..
Im glad that finger print by the date didn't hinder the grade..
Or the weak strike in united, or the T in states, or the lack of detail in the shield, or the obvious marks on the cheek, or even the hair lined fields....
Wait a minute, thats not my coin... MS65 tops..Who was the first owner? I wonder, who is that guy on cheers? clavin ball..
Dr. Frasier thats it.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>fc: If you only knew the stories on some of the classics.
I don't read your posts - do you bash pop top classics equally?
Wondercoin >>
yes, the same things apply to classics.
i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make
a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention
of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you
will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and
do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side
of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers
read it.
we agree to disagree.
<< <i>
yes, the same things apply to classics.
i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make
a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention
of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you
will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and
do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side
of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers
read it.
we agree to disagree. >>
I don't know WonderCoin's business except that he has a sterling reputation and I sure know
one doesn't obtain this while treating customers like pawns to make a buck. It really sounds
like, at least in this case, you're not agreeing to disagree.
<< <i>Im glad that finger print by the date didn't hinder the grade.. >>
That's die polish.
<< <i>or even the hair lined fields.... >>
Also die polish.
Grade much?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>
yes, the same things apply to classics.
i do read your posts and somtimes i think you are just out to make
a buck and the collectors are just a pawn to do it with.
i think you would gleefully sell misgraded top pops with no mention
of what the coin actually is.. as long as that label states XX you
will hawk it as the finest.
you dislike me because i do not worship everything you say and
do not fall into your marketing of such coins. I offer the other side
of the story and well, you dislike it because potential customers
read it.
we agree to disagree. >>
I don't know WonderCoin's business except that he has a sterling reputation and I sure know
one doesn't obtain this while treating customers like pawns to make a buck. It really sounds
like, at least in this case, you're not agreeing to disagree. >>
a sterling reputation to deliver what one sold hardly makes for a
reputable dealer. a reputable honest dealer has many more qualites
to earn that in my book.
a few people in this thread stated that the coin in the first post,
based on the pics was not a 67. wondercoin was not one of them
even though he should have stated it in my mind.
along comes not just a previous owner but the submitter of the coin
and states he thinks someone paid a lot of money for the plastic.
"If it were cracked and resubmitted, I figure it would get a 64 (maybe even SMS). That's some expensive plastic!"
wondercoin on the other hand states this:
"These great early MS kennedys don't get any easier to slab - they get tougher and tougher and, hence, more valuable IMHO."
avoids the whole topic of whether or not the coin is graded correctly
only caring about the label stating 67. Failing to realize his message
is basically stating if that coin was cracked out in this tougher and
tougher environment the coin would grade much lower.
draw your own conclusions! think about it. buy the coin and not
the plastic. the dealers who deal in top pop moderns will gladly sell
these tombed duds as the finest known for registry set players. yes
some of the coins they sell may very well be correctly graded and
knock outs, but when you see people getting all happy about the
sale price of a 65 Kennedy in 67 plastic with very few people stating
reality of the situation you really have to wonder who is being honest
and deserves a sterling reputation.
Regarding the coin in this thread - I think Telecoin (Jamie) is totally wrong with his assessment of the grade of the coin (MS64) (no biggie - I still think he is a great dealer). Could the coin regrade MS66 on a different day - probably IMHO (as many classics could drop a point or go up a point on a different day as well). Also, I have generally not sold MS pop top Kennedys in years nor do I plan to sell any coins any time soon (to the dissapointment of a few collectors who have asked that I consider selling off my entire set). I did mention that the last 1966 MS67 I sold for around $2,000 is now worth $6,000+ so it seems (no unhappy customer there). MS Kennedys are on the move up IMHO though. This is just the start I believe.
Wondercoin