Is it possible for a card or ticket to move in PSA holder?

cubfan89 · May 31, 2008 2:09PM

I bought a ticket from a board member last week. Nice guy but when it came in the mail the ticket had moved. It was in the corner, completley different place from his photo, and it seems it may have damaged a corner on the ticket. I didn't know it was possible the that cards or tickets could move in the holders. I thought they were sealed in place.

diamondman · May 31, 2008 2:14PM

<< I bought a ticket from a board member lsat week. Nice guy but when it came in the mail the ticket had moved. It was in the corner, completley different place from his photo, and it eems it may have damaged a corner on the ticket. I didn't know it was possible the that cards or tickets could move in the holders. I thought they were sealed in place. >>

yes it is possible more so with tickets than the cards , but it is possible on both for the card/ticket to move, bought a card tonight that I think if the seller would have gently tapped the holder it would have made the scan alot better and the price a little better for him and not me. JMO

grote15 · May 31, 2008 2:14PM

I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine.

dizzle · May 31, 2008 2:18PM

<< I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered.

cubfan89 · May 31, 2008 2:31PM

This ticket wasn't just moved a little. It is in a completley different spot, wendged in a corner and I think it is damaged.

grote15 · May 31, 2008 2:49PM

<< I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered.

Before being holdered? Possibly. Once holdered? No.

I'm too lazy to retrieve the thread, but you can if you'd like, or maybe an old timer can do it for you.

Leiascards · May 31, 2008 2:55PM

I am looking at a card right now that moves in its holder at least 1/8th of an inch in the holder

As you can tell there is about a 1/8th of an inch gap on the right edge.

NOW

dizzle · May 31, 2008 3:05PM

<< << I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered.

Before being holdered? Possibly. Once holdered? No.

I'm too lazy to retrieve the thread, but you can if you'd like, or maybe an old timer can do it for you. >>

I know exactly what you are talking about..so no need.

And yes damaged while holdered can occur..

lawnmowerman · May 31, 2008 3:15PM

<< 

<< << I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered.

Before being holdered? Possibly. Once holdered? No.

I'm too lazy to retrieve the thread, but you can if you'd like, or maybe an old timer can do it for you. >>

I know exactly what you are talking about..so no need.

And yes damaged while holdered can occur.. >>

diz is correct

Cards do move around inside psa slabs and yes they CAN be damaged while inside the slab. I once dropped a Troy Aikman psa card on my tile floor and the card edge was damaged in two places right where the corner cutouts begin.

The movement thing is my only problem with psa that I wish they would resolve.

cubfan89 · May 31, 2008 3:52PM

Wow. That is weird how that card moves! Thanks for the photos. It really is upsetting for me. Do you guys thinks the post office would do something about it if it moved while being delievered? Or should I try and contact PSA.

lawnmowerman · May 31, 2008 4:02PM

<< Wow. That is weird how that card moves! Thanks for the photos. It really is upsetting for me. Do you guys thinks the post office would do something about it if it moved while being delievered? Or should I try and contact PSA. >>

I would call Matt or Ivan at psa. They both have helped me out with issues involving slabs.

Matt

cubfan89 · May 31, 2008 4:04PM

Thanks Matt, I'll try that. I just assumed cards or tickets couldn't move in the holder.

lawnmowerman · May 31, 2008 4:08PM

<< Thanks Matt, I'll try that. I just assumed cards or tickets couldn't move in the holder. >>

Sure thing

11235813 · May 31, 2008 4:10PM

Just another example of the poor quality of PSA slabs.

grote15 · May 31, 2008 5:08PM

Just another example of the poor quality of PSA slabs.

And is if on cue...

grote15 · May 31, 2008 5:13PM

Wow. That is weird how that card moves! Thanks for the photos. It really is upsetting for me. Do you guys thinks the post office would do something about it if it moved while being delievered? Or should I try and contact PSA.

I'm quite sure the post office has absolutely nothing to do with any of this...

Cards will move a bit in the holder, that is obvious, but as far as being damaged? I've dropped and shaken hundreds of PSA slabs in my lifetime and have never seen the slightest effect on any card. Not sure about tickets, though, as I've never experimented with one of those.

dizzle · May 31, 2008 5:17PM

<< Wow. That is weird how that card moves! Thanks for the photos. It really is upsetting for me. Do you guys thinks the post office would do something about it if it moved while being delievered? Or should I try and contact PSA.

I'm quite sure the post office has absolutely nothing to do with any of this...

Cards will move a bit in the holder, that is obvious, but as far as being damaged? I've dropped and shaken hundreds of PSA slabs in my lifetime and have never seen the slightest effect on any card. Not sure about tickets, though, as I've never experimented with one of those. >>

Not trying to get in a debate about if damage can occur while the card is slabbed or not. But as lawnmower mentioned above he has seen it..Like I said a few long time boards members have showed pics of PSA cards with foil flakes inside the slabs where the edges were damaged and chipped. Yes it can happen...

grote15 · May 31, 2008 5:20PM

Cards do move around inside psa slabs and yes they CAN be damaged while inside the slab. I once dropped a Troy Aikman psa card on my tile floor and the card edge was damaged in two places right where the corner cutouts begin.

It's a little known fact that PSA holders will damage any Cowboy card at any opportunity. The sonically sealed holder is designed to do so.

grote15 · May 31, 2008 5:23PM

Not trying to get in a debate about if damage can occur while the card is slabbed or not. But as lawnmower mentioned above he has seen it..Like I said a few long time boards members have showed pics of PSA cards with foil flakes inside the slabs where the edges were damaged and chipped. Yes it can happen...

You may be right there with regard to the modern shiny foil stuff. I do know that it's not possible with vintage cards, but the foil cards may be another story.

onlychild1 · May 31, 2008 6:09PM

For those that don't believe in (or like) the soft sleeve plastic inserts, here are a few good reasons why they are used. The plastic rails along the sides that hold the card in place do a good job but they can also be the cause of post-slab damage.

Here is a relatively high grade vintage card (I think it was a psa 7 or 8) that has a corner peel. This particular card was banged around and the protective side rails on the holder had a pinching effect causing the pressure to the corner...like popping pimple (yuk). Originally it was just a theory but was proved to be the exact cause through conducting several tests. You can see this on cards that have been slabbed for a long time, especially those that are loose.

Here is a vintage PSA 6 card with a tear damage caused by the protective rail.

If you look at the edge on the bottom of the picture, you can also see the rail has started to bend or dent the the card inward. This bending or flattening of a cards edge caused by guard rails is somewhat common and can often be seen along the entire edge on one or more sides. If you look at some older graded cards in your collection, chances are you will see this. A loupe may be needed to for a closer view.

Side note - If cracked and sent back in, a grader might view this as potentially altered since the rails can remove the natural tone and the dent have the "look" of a card that may have been trimmed.

Kevin Saucier

cubfan89 · May 31, 2008 6:54PM

God, I'm glad I started this thread. This news is very puzzling and stunning to me. That photo is unreal. As for the post office, the photo the seller had before he shipped it was fine, ticket was dead center.

MeteoriteGuy · May 31, 2008 10:05PM

<< For those that don't believe in (or like) the soft sleeve plastic inserts, here are a few good reasons why they are used. The plastic rails along the sides that hold the card in place do a good job but they can also be the cause of post-slab damage.

Here is a relatively high grade vintage card (I think it was a psa 7 or 8) that has a corner peel. This particular card was banged around and the protective side rails on the holder had a pinching effect causing the pressure to the corner...like popping pimple (yuk). Originally it was just a theory but was proved to be the exact cause through conducting several tests. You can see this on cards that have been slabbed for a long time, especially those that are loose.

Here is a vintage PSA 6 card with a tear damage caused by the protective rail.

If you look at the edge on the bottom of the picture, you can also see the rail has started to bend or dent the the card inward. This bending or flattening of a cards edge caused by guard rails is somewhat common and can often be seen along the entire edge on one or more sides. If you look at some older graded cards in your collection, chances are you will see this. A loupe may be needed to for a closer view.

Side note - If cracked and sent back in, a grader might view this as potentially altered since the rails can remove the natural tone and the dent have the "look" of a card that may have been trimmed.

Kevin Saucier >>

I don't think that photo proves anything. You are showing us a tear, about 1/4", that could not happen in a PSA case.

MeteoriteGuy · May 31, 2008 10:06PM

Your peel theory seems flawed as well. That card is missing paper from the corner. If it "peeled" off as you suggest, where is it in the case?

DrJ · May 31, 2008 10:28PM

<< 

I'm quite sure the post office has absolutely nothing to do with any of this...

Cards will move a bit in the holder, that is obvious, but as far as being damaged? I've dropped and shaken hundreds of PSA slabs in my lifetime and have never seen the slightest effect on any card. Not sure about tickets, though, as I've never experimented with one of those. >>

Do you have issues with clumsiness?

Leiascards · May 31, 2008 11:31PM

I would imagine if that Drysdale I showed were dropped and landed on its side it would damage the card some. The corners of the card are the most sensitive to damage from short drops, but there is nothing for the corners to he so edge damage would be the most likely suspect.

As far as the USPS doing anything about it even if insurance were bought they would not do anything, it is clearly not their fault.

Leiascards · May 31, 2008 11:34PM

I agree that peeling damage would be impossible to do in a holder. It could be the card was previously soaked or spooned and got past PSA then after it was holdered the truth started to come out. That is what that looks like to me as the most likely culprit. Also why not show the entire card? In my photos of the movement I pretty much proved the card is the same in both pics. Without that you have nothing.

lawnmowerman · June 1, 2008 12:06AM

<< 

It's a little known fact that PSA holders will damage any Cowboy card at any opportunity. The sonically sealed holder is designed to do so.

>>

LOL That explains then

CDsNuts · June 1, 2008 12:09AM

I'm sure the laws of physics would allow a card to get damaged if it were to hit one of the rails at a certain speed/trajectory.

sfmays24 · June 1, 2008 2:47AM

Good morning to all,

I just read this thread and want to let everyone know that I sold this ticket to cubfan89 (LT), and a All Star Ticket to Archaninator (David, no problems)... there was no problem (damage) to the ticket or holder when I shipped it and it was well packaged/protected when mailed.

LT, please return the ticket for a refund and I'm sorry for the trouble.

thank you,

Mike

cubfan89 · June 1, 2008 2:55AM

The thing is Mike, is that it's not your fault. The ticket had to have moved during delivery and may have been PSA's fault or the POst Off.

fkw · June 1, 2008 4:39AM

Of course they move, I move them all the time before I scan them. A tap on a corner will get the "floaters" to move any way you want them to.

PSA gets an F on their lame design with the unusual size cards that are slabbed as floaters, Ive even seen a few smaller tpy cards that have spun all the way around.

here are 2 examples of floaters that can get damaged eventually.

fandango · June 1, 2008 5:21AM

<< 

<< I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered. >>

dizzle, those are Beckett board members who told you that....

You are such a TROLL DRIZZLE its so obvious.....

whenever you post, its anti PSA..GO BACK WITH THE KIDDIES, leave us alone!

ps..your avatar fits exactly what i think you would be like in real life!

fandango · June 1, 2008 5:29AM

<< For those that don't believe in (or like) the soft sleeve plastic inserts, here are a few good reasons why they are used. The plastic rails along the sides that hold the card in place do a good job but they can also be the cause of post-slab damage.

Here is a relatively high grade vintage card (I think it was a psa 7 or 8) that has a corner peel. This particular card was banged around and the protective side rails on the holder had a pinching effect causing the pressure to the corner...like popping pimple (yuk). Originally it was just a theory but was proved to be the exact cause through conducting several tests. You can see this on cards that have been slabbed for a long time, especially those that are loose.

Here is a vintage PSA 6 card with a tear damage caused by the protective rail.

If you look at the edge on the bottom of the picture, you can also see the rail has started to bend or dent the the card inward. This bending or flattening of a cards edge caused by guard rails is somewhat common and can often be seen along the entire edge on one or more sides. If you look at some older graded cards in your collection, chances are you will see this. A loupe may be needed to for a closer view.

Side note - If cracked and sent back in, a grader might view this as potentially altered since the rails can remove the natural tone and the dent have the "look" of a card that may have been trimmed.

Kevin Saucier >>

KEVIN, please explain to me how a card TEARS in a holder?? i dont buy it for one second.....

i dont believe, and have never seen an example of a card getting damaged in the new style holders...

i know jim crandell thinks you know stuff, but making that post and saying the holder "ripped " that card hurts your credibility in my book....

dizzle · June 1, 2008 6:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< I don't know about tickets, but a long-time board member here once conducted a scientific study that proved that a card will not move or be otherwise affected in a PSA holder even when put in a washing machine. >>

I've also heard a few long time board members say they have cards that have been damaged while holdered. >>

dizzle, those are Beckett board members who told you that....

You are such a TROLL DRIZZLE its so obvious.....

whenever you post, its anti PSA..GO BACK WITH THE KIDDIES, leave us alone!

ps..your avatar fits exactly what i think you would be like in real life! >>

No, Lawnmower was one as well as few members of this board..
When I post it's anti nothing. I just tell it how it is..no need to sugar coat things..You keep mentioning Beckett But you post there more than me by a landslide I just don't get it??

You say "go back with the kiddies leave us alone" who are you talking about exactly? I've asked you before and you could never answer.

If anyone is a "kiddie" you fit the bill.. Is it a must for you to come on these boards once a day and throw your tissy fits? your'e crazier than a chit house rat..yes sometimes it's kinda funny reading your nonsense but at other times I feel sorry for you, If this is how you act in everyday life..

onlychild1 · June 1, 2008 2:02PM

The corner that is starting to split was caused by the rails. It was a layered type card with a lot of movement. If you look closely you can also see the card edges are dented inward at the end of each rail. Thought this seemed odd as well, so a friend and I took a couple cards from the same year and simulated the repetitive movement in an open slab. The results were conclusive. Keep in mind a number of variables were needed to cause this damage...it was the right type of card that was loose in a holder for a long time.

My fault, I didn't go into enough detail...actually didn't go into ny detail. The other card had been nicely repaired. No fault to PSA, it just got by...it happens. The card was loose in the slab which eventually caused the repair to fail when it was banging round.

Not trying to bash PSA (they are my graders of choice), just attempting to let everyone know that the protective rails can cause damage to a loose card.

As I suggested, look at a pre-war card that has been in a holder for some time without a sleeve, chance are you will find the edges are dented. I see this time and time again to the point where it is almost the norm. Hope this helps.

All the best,

Kevin

fandango · June 2, 2008 2:44AM

so kevin, if im understanding you better, you said the card with the rip, was repaired, missed by psa, and then re-ripped because of the border rail?

that sounds VERY UNLIKELY and almost far-fetched.....

the odds of a card having a rip, and been repaired at the EXACT SAME SPOT The border rail begins seems remote...

also, without a good scan of the entire slab (to check for frosting) that card with the rip could have been placed in a slab to discredit PSA..

MeteoriteGuy · June 2, 2008 3:07AM

Cards can move around in a PSA case. It is also possible for a card to get damage, however I still have seen nothing in the images provided.

I find it strange the card got damaged where the side of the corner inside of the case angles AWAY from the card, yet the damage on the card is clearly a push in type damage. I do have one card around here somewhere where there is no damage, except where the corner inside thing meets. I will look for it tonight and share scans, but I do have about 6-7000 PSA graded cards (and about 2000 BGS & SCG) so I can't remember which card it is off hand. Even then, I did not get the card I have graded so to be honest, I have no ideal if it was there previously.

Also the fact that you have not showed us complete scans of the card/case is fishy. The card could be a PSA 1 and you are assigning whatever damage you want to the case, or as fandango noted the case could have been broken and a different card enclosed. Strange when someone uses the word "conclusive" in a couple post on this subject.

And back to the peeling card, it is missing a lot of paper. If as you suggest it peeled off inside the case, why not show us the whole card/case. This would prove your point quite well as the "peelings" should still be inside the case.

I will give you a lot of leeway, as most would. Meaning, I understand PSA misses the boat from time to time and screws up a grade. I will give you the cards can move and get damaged. I still however do not see that what you are saying is matching the photographs you provided.

Mark

lawnmowerman · June 2, 2008 4:05AM

While I won't comment on the tear shown in onlychild's card the other damage along the edge shown in his pic was 100% without a doubt caused by the card being able to move around, hitting the rail in the slab. I have a few cards that display this type of damage. All it will take is one good drop and you have yourself a damaged card. Everyone here knows I like PSA and am big into to registry. I am not just trying to slam PSA but onlychild is being unfairly judged just because he is new. As far as the edge damage goes, it is there because of a poor slab design, plain and simple. What good is a slab that is supposed to protect our cards if this stuff happens?

Here is that Aikman card I mentioned earlier in the post. The damage shown in his pic is the same kind of damage you see in mine.

MeteoriteGuy · June 2, 2008 5:43AM

"I am not just trying to slam PSA but onlychild is being unfairly judged just because he is new."

I don't care if onlychild is new, old or use to work for PSA or BGS, nor do I really think others do as well. I was just stating, his comments do not match his photos.

The edge damage on your Aikman, surely was caused by the case. But compare the photos. Your damage is RIGHT at the point the corner thing ends. The card onlychild has shown, the damage is after this point...like 1/32." Now perhaps the card has that leeway in the case, which would make the case a likely suspect, but I can only go by the couple images he is willing to share. Add that to claiming "conclusively" that the tear was caused by the case...does not lead credit.

Leiascards · June 2, 2008 5:59AM

Seems like it was probaly spooned or soaked as I stated earlier these repairs do tend to reappear later in the cards life and do commonly get passed PSA

lawnmowerman · June 2, 2008 6:01AM

<< I don't care if onlychild is new, old or use to work for PSA or BGS, nor do I really think others do as well. >>

Mark,

When a guy is new and comes on this board stating something kinda controversial like damage that was caused by the slab, people are gonna be skeptical and judge him. I have seen it time and time again and I know you have too.

<< I was just stating, his comments do not match his photos. >>

As far as the tear goes, I really doubt it but on the edge damage his comment DOES match his photo. My Aikman card is damaged the same exact way and I have another one lying around here with the same damage. They were damaged by the rail just like onlychild's card was.

<< The edge damage on your Aikman, surely was caused by the case. But compare the photos. Your damage is RIGHT at the point the corner thing ends. The card onlychild has shown, the damage is after this point...like 1/32." Now perhaps the card has that leeway in the case >>

As you said Mark, the card had leeway and is not lined up perfectly with the damage because it obviously moved in the slab. Like I said, the tear is far-fetched but the egde damage he shows is right on.

Matt

sagard · June 2, 2008 7:02AM

I don't think PSA graded that card with the tear displaying as present. I'm guessing they missed the subtle repair that someone had performed. After years of that card sliding into rails the tear resurfaced.

Loop your Gem10s. Then loop them again next year.

MeteoriteGuy · June 2, 2008 7:07AM

<< I don't think PSA graded that card with the tear displaying as present. I'm guessing they missed the subtle repair that someone had performed. After years of that card sliding into rails the tear resurfaced.

Loop your Gem10s. Then loop them again next year. >>

Hard to say without knowing the grade of the card and the like, it might be a PSA 1 as far as I can tell from the scans. We can alll scan a bad part on a PSA 1 or 2 and label it messed up, and be correct. But I do agree, that a repair gone bad is more fitting then the reason previously attributed.

Ladder7 · June 2, 2008 7:14AM

Any slabs, If you keep your cards stacked flat when transporting them, you should minimize any long-term wear.

StanTheManMusial · June 2, 2008 7:29AM

I don't recall where I seen it, but some guy claimed he done a test with a paintshaker and a PSA slabbed card, and it came out with no damage. Maybe someone else who reads this will know what I am talking about, but for the life of me I don't recall what site I seen this on.

I will say that I have never been a fan of the PSA holder allowing the card to jingle around. I have always wished they could work on that issue with a better designed slab.

Now, with the fake slabs coming from overseas, it's almost paramount that PSA starts designing a more counterfeit proof/tamper resistant slab, and an inner sleeve to stop movement of the card. It would be welcomed by me, that's for sure.

I have my share of nice cards in PSA slabs, but I always store them flat due to the worry of the card having movement in the holder.

gumbyfan · June 2, 2008 7:50AM

<< I don't recall where I seen it, but some guy claimed he done a test with a paintshaker and a PSA slabbed card, and it came out with no damage. Maybe someone else who reads this will know what I am talking about, but for the life of me I don't recall what site I seen this on.

I will say that I have never been a fan of the PSA holder allowing the card to jingle around. I have always wished they could work on that issue with a better designed slab.

Now, with the fake slabs coming from overseas, it's almost paramount that PSA starts designing a more counterfeit proof/tamper resistant slab, and an inner sleeve to stop movement of the card. It would be welcomed by me, that's for sure.

I have my share of nice cards in PSA slabs, but I always store them flat due to the worry of the card having movement in the holder. >>

I seen where he done that test, but I ain't remember where I done seen it.

dizzle · June 2, 2008 8:16AM

<< 

<< I don't recall where I seen it, but some guy claimed he done a test with a paintshaker and a PSA slabbed card, and it came out with no damage. Maybe someone else who reads this will know what I am talking about, but for the life of me I don't recall what site I seen this on.

I will say that I have never been a fan of the PSA holder allowing the card to jingle around. I have always wished they could work on that issue with a better designed slab.

Now, with the fake slabs coming from overseas, it's almost paramount that PSA starts designing a more counterfeit proof/tamper resistant slab, and an inner sleeve to stop movement of the card. It would be welcomed by me, that's for sure.

I have my share of nice cards in PSA slabs, but I always store them flat due to the worry of the card having movement in the holder. >>

I seen where he done that test, but I ain't remember where I done seen it. >>

I've seen it as well But some cards seem to have a little more wiggle room some fit snug. So the test the guy did with a 1987 donruss card may not apply to every slabbed card..

StanTheManMusial · June 2, 2008 8:25AM

Very true, dizzle. Do you recall where this was located? Possible link? I simply can't find it.

lawnmowerman · June 2, 2008 8:28AM

I am trying to find that as well.

I recall that the card was damaged in one of the tests contrary to what others remember.

Back to looking

StanTheManMusial · June 2, 2008 8:36AM

<< I am trying to find that as well.

I recall that the card was damaged in one of the tests contrary to what others remember.

Back to looking

>>

Thanks.

You may be correct, but for some reason I was thinking it was not damaged. Honestly, I can't be 100% sure since it's been so long ago that I seen that. I hope you can find it, so we can review.

dizzle · June 2, 2008 8:40AM

Here it is someone posted along time ago about 3 posts down in this thread

LINK>>>>

Nevermind the links don't work

Is it possible for a card or ticket to move in PSA holder?

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