WARNING vintage football guys..Stay away from this ebayer!
BigDaddyBowman
Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭
You may recall that a while back I posted about winning a 1955 Bowman Len Ford PSA 7 card off ebay, and when I received the card from the seller, it was a PSA 7 Ford but not the one pictured in the auction...it had much worse centering. When I contacted the seller he said that he mistakenly used the wrong scan of a card he had already sold. He eventually returned my money..end of story right??
Well, amazingly, the seller is up to the same trick again....using the same picture of the card I thought I was buying in his auction. BEWARE!!!!!!!!! He is selling a different card...not the one pictured. I will never buy from this guy again...and I strongly warn against any one else buying from him. He has 100% feedback, honest mistake the first time..maybe.....but to repost the same picture...c'mon??
His ebay ID is Oldtimefootball Auction #
http://cgi.ebay.com/1955-BOWMAN-14-LEN-FORD-PSA-NM-7-RC_W0QQitemZ190223380943QQihZ009QQcategoryZ16295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
sorry dont know how to link.
Well, amazingly, the seller is up to the same trick again....using the same picture of the card I thought I was buying in his auction. BEWARE!!!!!!!!! He is selling a different card...not the one pictured. I will never buy from this guy again...and I strongly warn against any one else buying from him. He has 100% feedback, honest mistake the first time..maybe.....but to repost the same picture...c'mon??
His ebay ID is Oldtimefootball Auction #
http://cgi.ebay.com/1955-BOWMAN-14-LEN-FORD-PSA-NM-7-RC_W0QQitemZ190223380943QQihZ009QQcategoryZ16295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
sorry dont know how to link.
0
Comments
Snorto~
Steve
and here is what I got: (and returned to the buyer for a refund)
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Either way I will not be giving him any bussiness.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Personally, I would be returning that card for a refund. If you used PayPal, just make sure you sent back with delivery confirmation. "item not as described" would fit perfectly into this situation.
Jason >>
He already went through this himself, he is warning others not to fall for this clowns shenanigans.
Ryan,
email one:
I took a look at the picture on line for Ford and it is the wrong one. It is too late for me to change the picture now but I will contact the bidder after the auction and negate the transaction. Thanks for alerting me to the repeated error. Ron
email two:
Ryan, I have left messages for those who have bid on the Ford card and alerted them to the problem with the picture. Thanks again for alerting me. Ron
- oldtimefootball
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BUT, it stretches likelihood quite a bit. Possible, though.
In any event, I doubt the mistake will be made THREE times.
<< <i>Based on the seller's stars, it is remotely plausible that he "has made the same mistake TWICE."
BUT, it stretches likelihood quite a bit. Possible, though.
In any event, I doubt the mistake will be made THREE times.
Well, I held off after last time, but with this recent development, I felt obligated to give him my first neg in my ebay "career." I gave him the benefit of the doubt the first time, but doing the same thing again with the exact same card seems just a little too shady for me.
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it was done in concert with him canceling the auction.
Steve
I'm sure like many people who occasionaly sell on ebay to advance their collection, he made the same mistake again or was too lazy to re-scan in a new picture. Maybe it slipped his mind. Who really knows. Then once the second listing got a bid he doesn't know how to add a new scan of the right card he's selling to correct the mistake.
I really don't think he's pulling a fast one twice. I just think he's too busy with other stuff or he really doesn't know how to 'add a picture' to his description to correct it.
This is why the new ebay feedback system blows in my opinion. He made a mistake, you got your refund, then you still drilled him with a negative out of spite.
Maybe I'm the only one here who feels this way, but frankly leaving him a neg. over a wrong card pictured is way overboard.
A persons ebay reputation is judged by feedback only, and it's now a one way street.
Mistakes do happen and sometimes they happen twice. It's still a 7 he's selling. Instead of drilling him with a negative, posting on here how he's a crook, maybe via email BigDaddy could help walk him through the process of updating a new scan to his listing with a notation he's showing the wrong card. Then the high bidder can retract their bid if they choose to.
I've done deals with Ron in the past and they all went fine. He's not a bad guy at all. I think he's not that savvy on the computer, that's it.
Okay, so go ahead now and jump on my case for defending him......
Rich
I too found it funny that this guy chose to do this again with the same card.
Something not right.
I have no problem with you defending him, as it is always good
to hear another side of a story.
edited to add: the neg was left for sending a different card I thought.
Steve
Feedback showing me that the seller misled someone on THE SAME CARD tells me not to buy from him. He had lots of time to correct the "mistake" and didn't.
I think he did the right thing and might not have done that under the old system.
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<< <i> He made a mistake, you got your refund, then you still drilled him with a negative out of spite.
Maybe I'm the only one here who feels this way, but frankly leaving him a neg. over a wrong card pictured is way overboard.
A persons ebay reputation is judged by feedback only, and it's now a one way street.
Rich >>
Rich,
What is the purpose of feedback? If feedback is to mean anything, I felt it was my duty to post a negative in this case. This mistake may have happened to others who believed his mistake explanation, and didn't leave a negative. To quote you.."you still drilled him with a negative out of spite" is very unfair to me in my opinion. In over 10 years of ebay transactions, I have never left anyone a negative before this case. After the original auction was won and I received a different ..and of course much worse... card from the seller than the one that was pictured, I sent the card back and got a refund. I was satisfied wth this and so I left No Feedback at all...how could I say it was a positive experience? I felt that leaving none was just. The seller said that he mistakenly used an old scan of a card he does not have any more. Ok I bought it. If I was being spiteful, I would have left the negative the first time. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Since the card is one that I am looking for I came across his auction again...a month later keep in mind. I almost bid on it again!..then I realized it was the same picture and seller. Same picture used in the bad auction I bought. I emailed him about the wrong scan again and he said...same thing again..just a mistake. With this I felt obligated to warn potential buyers of this. Now buyers can at minimum, ask the seller before bidding...Am I getting the card pictured? He probably is "a good guy" as you have stated but he still made the same exact mistake twice...with the exact same card! There are alot of "good guys" on this forum as well, and I felt that a warning to them was needed. I do not feel my original post was slamming his character..just stating what I believe to be the facts. Will he lose business because of my one negative? I doubt it...Will buyers be warned to make sure they are getting the right card? Hopefully.
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Today i received a reply, he said he had made a mistake and was taking the card out of auction.
The auction ended and someone won it.
Not sure what he meant by 'out of auction'
to me that would mean ending it early not letting it run its course.
Steve
That said:
I would NEVER NEG a seller who remedied my complaint.
GOOD sellers are currently facing difficult issues on EBAY.
To disincent them of fixing problems/mistakes is unwise.
ONE NEG/Neut can lead to the closing down of a seller
for 30-days. For most small sellers, that means the end
of their EBAY days; once TOSd, they will not return.
NEGs should be reserved for the scumbags that obviously
deserve them; scamsters and fraudsters. When there is
even slim reasonable doubt, it is best not to shoot.
It should be noted that even as we speak, large bases
of EBAYers who have left NEGs are being assembled. The
lists will be sold to sellers by subscription. That should not
deter NEGs left in good faith, but it should be considered
before NEGs are dropped.
<< <i>
Well, amazingly, the seller is up to the same trick again....using the same picture of the card I thought I was buying in his auction. BEWARE!!!!!!!!! He is selling a different card...not the one pictured. I will never buy from this guy again...and I strongly warn against any one else buying from him. He has 100% feedback, honest mistake the first time..maybe.....but to repost the same picture...c'mon??
His ebay ID is Oldtimefootball Auction #
http://cgi.ebay.com/1955-BOWMAN-14-LEN-FORD-PSA-NM-7-RC_W0QQitemZ190223380943QQihZ009QQcategoryZ16295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
sorry dont know how to link. >>
Bigdaddy,
I know you're a good guy and completely understand you're upset about your deal with this seller. It's great to warn other board members here about potentially crooked sellers too, but I honestly don't think this seller tried to intentionally screw you or others.
If he did, would he have posted positive feedback for you right after you paid? Then when you called him on the wrong scan, he granted you a refund and admitted his error. This doesn't sound like a scam artist to me. He's a small time seller/mostly collector who is selling off his dups. Look at his listings. The pictures are poorly cropped, the descriptions are minimal, shipping charges are cheap. He's a hobbyist who is not real savvy on the computer. If he knew how to add to his items description after they already had bids on them, I'm sure he would have on the second listing of the Ford RC. Mistakes do happen, sometimes twice. He probably should've ended the 2nd auction to avoid this from happening again, but he choose not to and he'll have to deal with the consequences of that decision with the second buyer. Maybe he doesn't know that all cards in the same grade are not considered equal. A PSA 7 is not always a PSA 7.
Obviously you were not happy with the way your deal went down, but you got your refund. Posting here to warn other board members to strongly stay away from this sellers listings are a little extreme in my honest opinion.
It was a $36 card. Seller leaves you a positive FB. Wrong scan. Seller admitted mistake, you got refund. You leave a negative and attempt to burn his reputuation down on a message board as a warning to others. Think about that. It's not like it was long dragged out paypal dispute. It seems like you're out nothing but some time and inconvience. Meanwhile the seller has a permanent negative on his FB profile for a mistake.
Personally, I've made this exact same mistake myself as a seller. About five years ago I sold a '72 Clemente PSA 9 on ebay to a CU board member. I save scans of older valuable cards I've owned. I posted the wrong scan, the buyer opon receiving the card told me about it, I refunded him and apologized. I had already left him a positive as I always would upon receiving his payment. He didn't leave me any feedback. He realized it was an honest error on my part. Mistakes do happen.
As far as slamming him, yes you did in your first post. You advised other here to strongly avoid buying from him and stay away from this ebayer. Justified? I guess in your experience with him. I just feel like your warning message to others was a little strong.
Just my 2 cents...
Rich
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I think the "warning" is fine inside of this privileged group.
(Though google has gotten rid of most of that "privilege.")
The NEG - to the world - is excessive. If card-pirate busters
want the justice they deliver to approximately equal the crime,
they need to be SUPER thoughtful b4 they choose a punishment.
I respectfully disagree with your opinions.
I did the following:
1)Win auction by placing highest bid
2)Pay within 10 minutes of auction end via paypal
3) Receive different card (in worse condition) same card, diff. cert #
4) Email seller and notify of error
5) Re-package card, drive to post office, return card to seller, and get my money back via check....have to then go to bank and deposit check.
6) Believe sellers story that he made a mistake...so I do not leave any feedback...END of story
Not quite:
7) A month later, I accidently stumble across the same seller, using the same wrong picture in a current auction..of a card that he told me he had already sold.
8) I email seller and notify him that he made the same mistake for a second time.
9) Publicly warn many of the "good guys" on this forum to use caution dealing with this seller. I give auction number and ebay ID, but never state sellers name. (although I knew it from having to send the card back the first time.) Another forum member..in defense of the seller... posts the sellers real name on the board...and I am accused of wrong doing????
10) Get email response from seller admitting that he did the same thing again that he did to me. He said that he would email the bidders.
11) Leave negative on ebay to warn other ebay buyers to make sure that the card delivered is the actual card pictured in auction.
12) Get accused by several on the board that I did wrong for giving a negative on ebay to a seller who wronged twice
13)Seller never ended auction and auction ends with a high bidder paying just under SMR for a card that I had won a month prior for much less..
14)Now there is another ebay winner that will have to deal with the same issue. Hopefully, he will notice the different card.
I suppose I should have just ignored the fact that I caught the seller doing the same wrong thing again, and just said "heck with it...it's someone else's problem."
I don't recall ebay feedback asking...Is the seller a good guy or not? or what is his feedback with other buyers? I do recall ebay feedback asking about MY experience with the seller and then asking "Are you stating just the facts?" that I did.
I don't know if I can say anything else. I do find it pretty ironic that I am the one being told I did wrong.
Ryan
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......I do find it pretty ironic that I am the one being told I did wrong. "
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You did right by NOT ignoring the repeat conduct.
You decided the NEG was right; nothing "wrong" with that.......it's your FB.
Before May 19, a NEG was a harsh slap. NOW, a NEG or a NEUT can be
a death sentence.
I am a cold and hard person who sees very little gray; LOTS of black/white.
Modeling one's conduct on my views is not anything that anybody should do.
As far as the neg goes, I think it was totally undeserved. You got your refund back w/o any hassle. If you had not seen the same error the second time, would you have left the negative? I think the answer is no. You ONLY left a neg because you saw the same error twice. So your feedback was NOT based on your transaction. If it was based on your transaction, you wouldn't have left the neg. You based your neg on another transaction that didn't involve you. Afterall, you said, "Well, I held off after last time, but with this recent development, I felt obligated to give him my first neg in my ebay career."
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
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The notion of being a buster of card-pirates has at its herat the
concept that ALL transactions affect all/most other transactions.
I - and MANY other folks - have said for years that if we cannot
stop the EBAY frauds, we are ALL going to end up being harshly
punished by EBAY rule-changes. NOW, it has happened.
The chickens have come home to roost and they are carping in
the coops of some VERY good sellers.
I guess it depends on what you beleive as to how you see it and I think it was an honest mistake.
///////////////////////////////////////////////
I previously said that it could very well have been a repeated mistake.
Coming to that conclusion, for me, required a slight suspension of my
general distrust, BUT, based on the seller's DSRs, he is definitely NOT
a crook.
I suspect, but don't know for sure, that if the seller had SIMPLY killed
the subject listing when he was told about the "repeated mistake,"
he would have avoided the NEG.
My listings get complained about every week. Some complaints are
legit, most are not; I pull ALL listings that are questioned, and get
to the bottom of the problem. I don't fumble around or argue or get
defensive.......I just pull 'em.
Steve
<< <i>I think the seller should hire a lawyer, maybe my cousin Vinny? >>
Is he good with yoots?
out of auction, this morning he emailed me again, and says he will now
make an adjustment with the buyer. So he basically let the auction run its course.
I think Big daddy did the right thing in warning other potential buyers.
If a person is going to sell on ebay then they better learn how to post pics and revise
listings.
I did not email him again.
Vinny.....err Steve
The seller needs to take this neg as a lesson on honesty and truth in listings or his time on eBay will not be long.
Steve
To look at it another way, if I save a busload of burning kids and spend my weekends volunteering at a homeless shelter, but then turn around and rob a bank, does that mean I'm not a thief because of my previous actions?
Lee
Edit- Has anybody contacted the winning bidder to find out if he was in fact contacted by the seller about the issue with the pic?
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I suspected that was the EXACT problem when I studied the guy's stars/FB.
Crooks cannot maintain the numbers he has. Absent-minded - preoccupied -
folks make the kind of mistakes that he claimed to have made.
As a semi-evil person myself, I kinda know what they look like. This seller is not
a member of my tribe.
I bet if someone were to win a 1000.00 card and didn't pay he would
know how to get his fees back.
And if not then he would learn awfully quick.
Steve