Help needed on Silver 1572 Papal Medal

JRocco

This one is a silver piece.
It is dated 1572 and shows Gregory XIII on the obverse and the
reverse shows a depiction of the Massacre of the Huguenots.
It measures 9 on the Mionnet scale.
Any info on this one would be greatly appreciated.
I see a reference in the Spink catalogue to a silver piece that is mounted.
Spink # 699

TwoKopeiki

Oh, wow, "Huguenots Slaughtered" medal - very neat item! Don't know if original, or restrike, since I was able to find only one reference. It refers to St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of Huguenots.



<< <i>Pope Gregory XIII, with the dragon of Satan as his heraldic symbol, was also the pope who upon hearing of the wholesale slaughter of Protestant French Huguenots, known as St. Bartholomew's massacre, had a medal struck to celebrate the bloody event. The reverse side of the medal, shown above, depicts an angel with a cross and sword murdering the Huguenot heretics. >>



Here's the Link - search for Huguenots.

More about St. Bartholomew's Day massacre.

ormandh

Here is my restrike. It has verdigris and probably was struck in the 1800's. -Dan

ormandh

Yours looks like it may be from the 18th century? -Dan

Iosephus

JRocco, your piece appears to be a restrike from the 17th or 18th century. Definitely nice in silver, and it might be rather early due to this and the amount of wear. Certainly a great historical medal, and one that I believe was used by enemies of the Church as propaganda, showing the cruelty of the establishment, especially with such horrors being lauded on an official medal. I believe that the medal posted by ormandh is such a copy (not a restrike).

JRocco

Not sure if this would be any help.
There is a clearly separated punched I after MAX AN 1, that appears to be a different sized numeral 1.
I believe that these were originally punched with AN__blank__
The blank to be filled in with the year, in this case year 1 for the year 1592

Iosephus

I'm judging by the placement of the head and features with relation to the legend, compared to images in the CNORP book. Looking closely, the image in the book for the restrike also has this extra, hidden I. My Italian is virtually non-existent, by I believe the description says that a Hamerani was involved in the new dies for the restrikes. I'm guessing that maybe that extra I could be leftover from whatever impression of the original design was used in creating the new dies, with a new I being punched next to it when the entire legend was repunched. This is purely speculation on my part.

I've never heard of the dies being made with blank spots for the numbers; as far as I was aware, new dies were engraved for each year, possibly being modified from copies of the previous year's die, as I have seen some where the numerals (which are part of the design) are going into the side of the bust.

JRocco

<< <i>I've never heard of the dies being made with blank spots for the numbers; as far as I was aware, new dies were engraved for each year, possibly being modified from copies of the previous year's die, as I have seen some where the numerals (which are part of the design) are going into the side of the bust. >>



Hi Joe,
I am speculating based on this comment from the 2000 reprint of the Spink Catalogue of Papal Medals made prior to the description of Spink 686
"The following medals, by Lawrence of Parma, have obv. Bust to left, bareheaded,the legend ends -- MAX. A. and a space for the year to be filled in"
And a further comment made just prior to the description of Spink 692
"The following have obv. Bust to left with calotte, and dated AN. 1."

Iosephus

Ah, I see what you mean. My understanding is that this refers only to medals 686-691, where Lorenzo Fragni engraved the obverse. Looking through CNORP, it seems that this common obverse was used on restrikes, pairing it with several reverses (from what appear to be original dies). On the couple pictured that I looked at, the entire date was filled in (e.g., 1583), rather than using numerals to indicate a regnal year.

BTW, your medal was (originally) engraved by Gianfederico Bonzagni, (and the obverse design is different than Lorenzo's), so I do not believe that comment applies here.

JRocco

Thanks Joe,
I hear what you are saying.

I am actively trying to learn from those of you that know more about these pieces than I do...
and I will keep learning as long as you guys are this willing to teach.

I hope you realize that you are probably teaching quite a few of us at the same time.
I will keep researching this as best I can but let me say again---Thank you for the help.

Iosephus

I've only been collecting papal medals for about three years now, so I've still got plenty of learning to do myself. I'm learning right here, in fact, right along with you. Every time you post another beauty, I get to delve into some references and see if I can make anything out of it. Hopefully I'm giving correct info out here . I'm sure STLNATS will be along and read this thread, and I'm sure he can supply his [superior to mine] input.

STLNATS

It's late, but the piece looks like CNORP 683, indicated to have been struck in the 18-19th centuries but nicer than most being in silver. The contemporary/original pieces (682) seem to start both obverse and reverse legends with dots.

My understanding is that this refers only to medals 686-691

That's how I read it too Joe. If you look at the medals after L 745, the dates are filled in, but in arabic numerals (1583), not roman regal years.

Here's an example of 690 without the date added.

500Bay

Hi all,

I'm just getting into Papal medals, and was curious about the 1572 Gregory XIII on the obverse and the
reverse depiction of the Massacre of the Huguenots. How available are these? Any idea how many were made? I figure the silver is less common than the bronze, how much would each run now?

Thanks in advance!
Greg

WillieBoyd2

These are certainly an interesting set of medals.

On the original medal reverse, there seems to be a blunderbuss
under the dead man's head, lower center.

I wonder if this is the first numismatic appearance of a firearm.

The copper restrike seems to have edited it out.

STLNATS

There appear to have been a variety of dies used to make the copper restrikes. If you compare the medals carefully I think the blunderbuss is still presented on the copper, but its just not very detailed. There's a number of other differences in the presentation of the two medals with the copper being much less skillfully executed. The silver medal is attributed as a restrike since it does not have the characteristics of an "original: the only original medal listed in CNORP is gilt bronze and the obv and rev legends both start with dots. The medal in Roma Resurgens is also a gilt bronze (maybe the same as in CNORP).

The number originals minted for this and most pre 1700 medals is generally not known (the annual series being a notable exception). And, as far as I know there is no record of restrikes either. But, in terms of scarcity, this was a popular medal and the coppers are one of the most common of the early types. There tend to be one or two coppers on ebay every time I look (may be the same ones just being relisted). Price is all over the place since a lot of sellers don't know (or care) about the series and availability of restrikes. A quick scan of ebay reveals 3 copper restrikes on ebay at the moment. One has been bid up to euro 11.50 closing tomorrow. The other two have buy it now prices closer to USD $200 but I think they've been there for a while. Something well under $100 for a bronze seems fair to me, altho you might find a "buy." if you're patient. By contrast, the silver is a real prize. I don't have and don't recollect seeing anther silver offered and $200-300 is probably fair for one in nice shape so long as you realize what you're buying. And, if its nice, you might have to outbid me for it. Just M(sometimes not so)HO, however, and others might have a different read on these.

500Bay

STLNATS, thanks for your answer.
I like the historical aspect of the Gregory XIII medal. I do read Italian, so the CNORP set may be worthwhile, if I can find them at a reasonable price.