New MPL registry player debuts at #3!!
BWRC
Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
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BWRC
Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭
Comments
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
If you started today to build a set with number 1, 2 or 3 in mind, what do you think the cost would be if you could find the Jewels?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
So I looked at the other ttsd sets and there is Roger (RBinTex). So what gives here? Beautiful coins but please tell an ignorant collector what this is all about? Thanks.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
WS
congrats rb
Mark's Mattes
Mark's Cameo SMS Set
Mark's Non-Cameo SMS Set
Jonathan
That is interesting? I will confirm that I sold the coin below to Jonathan last month and when I compare the images with the one ttsd has in his set, it is the same coin?. The ttsd image is darker but definately the same coin.
This was the image that the #3 set was showing for the 1915 date in his registry set this morning
It looks like ttsd has pulled the image of the 1915. I think his whole Registry Set should be pulled from the group, and his ranking be removed from consideration. What do others think?
Jonathan
Jonathan
<< <i>He's retired his MPL Registry Set, only problem is, it still shows up as 3rd in the All Time Finest. Something should be done about that!
Jonathan >>
I see the set is now retired and a different coin image is showing for the 1915?? oh well
Rather than starting a poll, how about if I start a pool? Who can guess the closest to the exact time and day BJ deep sixes this so-called retired set? I say noon PT, Monday, May 12, unless this Rosie Ruiz brainiac figures out how to pull it first. No offense intended to the Roosie disme collectors out there, in 1980 Rosie Ruiz tried to "steal" the Boston Marathon.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I see images of the coins now. Has the controversy been settled?
________________________________________
From: Cosetta Robbins [mailto:CRobbins@collectors.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:08 PM
To: 'Jonathan Watkins'; Set Registry
Subject: RE: Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Matte Proof (1909-1916)
Hi Jonathan,
After speaking with BJ and doing some further research, we have found no evidence that your coin(s) are or were being used in any other registry set. If a coin was listed in your inventory then it could not be used by another member. Also, the cert #’s of the coins do not match. While I am not an expert by any means, the images for the 1915 coin you mention appear to be different also.
If I have missed something, please let me know.
Thank You,
Cosetta Robbins
Assistant Set Registry Manager
Collectors Universe Inc.
(800) 325-1121 ext #148
(949) 833-7660 fax
Suffice it to say I do not agree with her assessment. The 1915 coins are the same, why would someone post a new Registry Set and then retire it within two days, why would images come and go, why would contact info be removed from Registry Set owner??? Me thinks "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"!
It occurs to me that if someone wanted to, and had sufficient time, one could identify legimate Certification numbers not assigned to another collection and download images from auction sites for past sales. I don't know what happened, at this stage I am not going to press the investigation any further. I do feel it is wrong that someone else has had their legimate Registry Set moved down a slot because of a very questionable listing!
Jonathan
The coin is clearly the same from the light areas behind Lincoln and the dark spots on the reverse IMHO.
Cert # Item PCGS No. Var Denom Grade Rating Pop Pop Higher My Cost Price Purchased Date Source Owner's Comments
05487185 1915 3323 1C PR65RD 134.00 21 7 $6,500.00 $5,500.00 4/9/2008 BWRC Brilliant Red, above average
Thanks for asking, looks like it wasn't too difficult to find another image of this coin!
Jonathan
<< <i>While I am not an expert by any means, the images for the 1915 coin you mention appear to be different also. >>
<< <i>Suffice it to say I do not agree with her assessment. The 1915 coins are the same, why would someone post a new Registry Set and then retire it within two days, why would images come and go, why would contact info be removed from Registry Set owner??? Me thinks "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"!
It occurs to me that if someone wanted to, and had sufficient time, one could identify leg[t]imate Certification numbers not assigned to another collection and download images from auction sites for past sales . . . . I do feel it is wrong that [I would have to say "if" instead of "that" only because I can't prove otherwise - G99G] someone else has had their legi[t]mate Registry Set moved down a slot because of a very questionable listing! >>
I have only the highest regard for CR, but I would draw a distinction regarding her comment. While I think the photographs clearly do appear to be different (I don't know if they actually ARE different or if the same photograph could have been modified with Photoshop), I think the coins are unquestionably the same. There are simply far too many identical identifying marks. On the obverse there's the large and very uniquely shaped stain above the "TY" in "LIBERTY", the smaller stain above that, and the spot under the "E" in "LIBERTY". On the reverse there's the spot under the "C" in "CENT", the spot to the right of the "T" in "CENT, the spot above the "T" in "STATES", the spot to the right of the "S" in "STATES", the spot below the "ES" in "STATES", the spot between "UNITED" and "STATES", and the five spots below the "RICA" in "AMERICA".
As for the excerpt I have quoted from HdHunter, my only quibble is that I would reserve judgment and replace the word "that" with the word "if", as I have indicated in brackets, but I strongly suspect that HdHunter is absolutely right. The totality of the circumstances are highly suspicious. They not only fail the smell test, but the reasonableness test as well.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>Yep!
Cert # Item PCGS No. Var Denom Grade Rating Pop Pop Higher My Cost Price Purchased Date Source Owner's Comments
05487185 1915 3323 1C PR65RD 134.00 21 7 $6,500.00 $5,500.00 4/9/2008 BWRC Brilliant Red, above average
Thanks for asking, looks like it wasn't too difficult to find another image of this coin!
Jonathan >>
Just looked up the December 4, 2004 auction that the pics in the registry set are from. Wow, if PCGS says this isn't the same coin then IDK what they are trying to protect the set for? It's obviously the same...
Mark
I propose that "ttsd" has scoured the Heritage archives for pictures and certs. Each cert has been typed in to see if it resides in someone's set already. It is not clear if those certs actually go with the photos that were presented, but I would say that with respect to the 1915, if a valid unused cert has been used, then the cert used clearly does not match the coin that is pictured, because we know what that pictured coin has for a certification number.
In any event, once all certs are entered and validated, the set is then retired because certs from retired sets can be used in current sets. By retiring the set immediatley, "ttsd" has avoided being caught by someone who actually has the coin because they can still enter that coin in a "current" registry set.
Roger, what do you say about this?
But for other instances, check out Retired Sets "Roger's Coins - 17th" and "Roger's Coins - 6th". The 1913 pictured is the same coin as in Curley's present set, with the identical PGGS.
Curley, can you confirm?
Geez, Tex, what up? Got any of mine? Let's the detectives go to work.
<< <i>
<< <i>He's retired his MPL Registry Set, only problem is, it still shows up as 3rd in the All Time Finest. Something should be done about that!
Jonathan >>
I see the set is now retired and a different coin image is showing for the 1915?? oh well >>
Brian - I don't understand. That retired coin in the TTSD Finest looks exactly the same to me, right down to the reverse spotting pattern. What is the rule? Should TTSD be allowed to keep a finest set that was questionably collected?
I can clear some of mine up.
That is my '13 in Roger's Coins
My '13 is also in Colorful's set, along with my '09, '10, '11, '12, and '16. When this set was retired, I was fortunate enough to purchase the ones that upgraded my set.
I'm ok with this because the coins belonged to these brothers when the sets were retired. Besides, it gives my coins a mini pedigree. I wouldn't want to see a coin that I own in an active set though. If I were to retire my set, I'd want to keep the images as a reminder of what I had.
I also enjoy seeing some of my former MPLs in some of the other active sets. I don't claim ownership of them though.
I did, however; have someone get them TruViewed for me after I purchased them and these TruViews have showed up in the retired sets. Technically speaking, even though I paid for the service, I don't own the TruViews and they can show up wherever the other brother wants them to show up.
From: Cosetta Robbins [mailto:CRobbins@collectors.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 9:38 AM
To: 'Jonathan Watkins'
Subject: RE: Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Matte Proof (1909-1916) - Registry Fraud
Good Morning Jonathan,
Actually, after receiving your email last night and reviewing the comments on the forum, specifically the one from ‘G99G’ where the similarities are pointed out, I was able to see them clearly.
When a set is retired, if the inventory for that set still resides with the registrant no one else can use that item in a new set. Without divulging detailed information, the majority of the coins in this set have not been registered, by yourself or anyone else, prior to being added to the current registrants’ inventory. We have record of all cert numbers in all registered sets regardless of they are current or retired. Unfortunately, anyone can copy an image from a website. However, as I mentioned previously, the certification numbers are not the same.
That being said, we do wish to protect the integrity of the Registry, not only for the program itself, but for the members who drive the program. I will email the registrant of this set and ask for proof of possession.
Thank You,
Cosetta Robbins
Assistant Set Registry Manager
Collectors Universe Inc.
(800) 325-1121 ext #148
(949) 833-7660 fax
I think Cosetta's solution is the only one PCGS can follow, even though it is possible someone could show a receipt for purchase of a coin they have sold to someone else. Curious to see how this finally turns out, and sorry my first interaction with this group revolves around a negative issue....
Jonathan
I personally don't think you owe anyone an apology. One mistake by another person does not change the fact that 99.9% of the Registry participants have integrity and deal honestly. You just happened to be the recipient of a fraudulent situation, and had the guts to point it out. The apology is owed to you and the Registry by the person who is responsible.
Without an apology or explanation at least, the offender ought to be punished. We all know the difference between right and wrong. Maybe the shame or stigma is punishment enough. Who am I to say?
But as a fellow member, I support your decision to speak your mind.
Take care.
Duane
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I know I said I was going to let it drop, but after viewing some of the other comments in this thread, asked PCGS to review further, and here is the response:
From: Cosetta Robbins [mailto:CRobbins@collectors.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 9:38 AM
To: 'Jonathan Watkins'
Subject: RE: Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Matte Proof (1909-1916) - Registry Fraud
Good Morning Jonathan,
Actually, after receiving your email last night and reviewing the comments on the forum, specifically the one from ‘G99G’ where the similarities are pointed out, I was able to see them clearly.
When a set is retired, if the inventory for that set still resides with the registrant no one else can use that item in a new set. Without divulging detailed information, the majority of the coins in this set have not been registered, by yourself or anyone else, prior to being added to the current registrants’ inventory. We have record of all cert numbers in all registered sets regardless of they are current or retired. Unfortunately, anyone can copy an image from a website. However, as I mentioned previously, the certification numbers are not the same.
That being said, we do wish to protect the integrity of the Registry, not only for the program itself, but for the members who drive the program. I will email the registrant of this set and ask for proof of possession.
Thank You,
Cosetta Robbins
Assistant Set Registry Manager
Collectors Universe Inc.
(800) 325-1121 ext #148
(949) 833-7660 fax
I think Cosetta's solution is the only one PCGS can follow, even though it is possible someone could show a receipt for purchase of a coin they have sold to someone else. Curious to see how this finally turns out, and sorry my first interaction with this group revolves around a negative issue....
Jonathan >>
Glad to see proof of possession being asked for here. I bet they will NOT be able to provide ownership proof. I know for a fact that curly's 1913 #ID number has changed since the picture of the coin in the Heritage archives shows the coin in an 7 digit "OGH" and now in an 8 digit blue. When coins regrade their ID number change so it would be easy to get a coin from the archives and use it in a set. I am sure this will be the same case for Jonathans coin. "Aloha"
Doug, your analysis is going to be 100% accurate!
Didn't realize I created such a stir.
Do you not realize that I owned Curly's 13 several years ago? I sold it and retired the set years ago also. The truview that appears there now automatically pops into the set when it gets created.
Neither I (nor anyone) can prevent a truview from popping into a retired set if/when it gets created. So YES, the image in my retired set IS Curly's coin. I can't help it if that coin was in my set before it was in his.
Thanks for replying.
There is still something about your TTSD set that does not make sense. I am aware of your Rogers Coins set which you completed in 2003. This TTSD set was created this past week and being GPA'd at 68 just doesn't make sense. It would be helpful to all of us if you would explain just what you did with the Matte proof set registry in the past week to make this thing happen. Thanks Roger.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Link to Rules: HERE
In order to list your set as current, you must own and have physical possession of the coins you are listing or be an agent with permission to represent a collection. (Possession may include items being held in your safe deposit box or items which you have consigned to auction.) A coin is not considered owned by you if you have sold it to another, regardless of buyback or return policies. Furthermore, this coin should be removed from your inventory and sets. If the same coin should return to your possession and you regain ownership, you then have the option to relist it in the registry. (emphasis in original)
"In order to list your set as current, you must own and have physical possession of the coins you are listing or be an agent with permission to represent a collection. (Possession may include items being held in your safe deposit box or items which you have consigned to auction.) A coin is not considered owned by you if you have sold it to another, regardless of buyback or return policies. Furthermore, this coin should be removed from your inventory and sets. If the same coin should return to your possession and you regain ownership, you then have the option to relist it in the registry.
You should retire a set from Current status when you have sold or broken up your set. To retire a set, simply delete the entire set and inventory in "My Sets." (Note that if you delete items from your set one by one, it will also reduce your ATF set completion.) If your set was at least 90% complete at the time of deletion, it will remain in the All Time Finest category and will be listed with a "viewable" status. If you still own the coins in a retired set that was 90% complete at the time of retirement and the set remains in the All Time Finest category, those same certification numbers cannot be re-used by you in a new set you may start in the same category. Should you wish to re-use those coins, please contact customer service first to delete the All Time Finest set from the Registry."
All the following rules were satisfied and complied with:
Are you telling us that last Friday when you listed the set in the "Current Finest" list, that you owned both HdHunter's coin and Curly's coin on that date?
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
The rules require you to OWN the coins at the time you list them into your inventory. You listed them last Friday. You did not own them on that date. I "think" your intent was to have these coins recognized in the "all time" list because at one time or another you may have had each of these coins pass thru your hands as part of your dealing. I don't think the Set Registry intends for this to be used this way or else many dealers such as Brian would have lots of "all time" set registry collections listed. If I am wrong about this, please explain your motivation. I realize the set is now gone from the "all time" list, but as I said in an earlier post to this thread it is important to people here to understand WHY you did what you did, even thou the whole thing will be forgotten shortly. Thanks for any explaination you care to give Roger. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
As per my request.
Steve,
Read the rules I posted. 1. None of them were broken. 2. Your assessment is not spot on.
Again thanks for your reply. I have read the rules but I am just not smart enough to understand. I KNOW you aren't an agent for someone who owned the COMPLETE set last Friday when you entered the set into your registry. I KNOW based on personal experience that you can't get a set listed on the "all time" list until it is listed on the current list. So, how did you get this 9 coin collection listed on the all time list last Friday unless you actually created the set last Friday. If you had it in your inventory from years ago and never deleted it after you sold the coins, then that was against the rules too. I just would like to know how and why you did it. I think others would like to know also. I also think you did the RIGHT thing in having BJ remove the set from the "all time" list. Thanks again Roger. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
My guess is that ownership of the coins in the set could not be confirmed and therefore the set was removed.
It is actually a pretty easy childish game that can be played with the registry. For instance, I know the cert numbers of many of the finest known Lincolns. A few of them are in Gerry's set that I know is not listed. Others reside elsewhere and are not listed. If I wanted to mess with the registry, I could just list those cert numbers in my collection. Of course, I would have to keep the set closed. Once it was discovered that I was listing my old 1919-S in 66RD (That now belongs to Gerry) I would be found out.
Actually, I'm surprised that this sort of shenanigan doesn't go on more often.
Jack
<< <i>2. Your assessment is not spot on. >>
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>Neither I (nor anyone) can prevent a truview from popping into a retired set if/when it gets created. So YES, the image in my retired set IS Curly's coin. I can't help it if that coin was in my set before it was in his. >>
There is a box that can be checked to prevent TruViews from loading.