1921 and 22 Matte Proof Peace Dollars?

Are these attainable coins or are they just impossible to get...

Jason

Comments

  • tightbudgettightbudget Posts: 7,311 ✭✭✭
    They appear from time to time in auctions. I'd say maybe a few times each year.

    Being able to afford one is another thing. Only you can decide whether or not you can afford one (I certainly can't...).
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,507
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • Yeah, that high relief matte proof is AWESOME! I love the look of that coin... now... where did I put that 40,000$

  • meos1meos1 Posts: 1,387
    Wow those as listed on coinfacts do not appear to be too expensive.

    Dan
    I am just throwing cheese to the rats chewing on the chains of my sanity!

    First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭

    It seems all the Matte and Satin Proof Peace Dollars I have seen offered are in NGC Holders.

    I have never seen - nor heard - of any in a PCGS Holder with the Proof Designation.

    Does PCGS recognize this Proof Status for the 1921 Matte or Satin Ultra High Relief
    and the 1922 Matte or Satin High Relief ?

    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • meos1meos1 Posts: 1,387
    Check the link. PCGS has not encapsulated a proof peace
    I am just throwing cheese to the rats chewing on the chains of my sanity!

    First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,153
    1921 and 1922 high relief sandblast proofs are known as well as satin proof 1921s. 1922 low relief sandblast and satin proofs are known. All were apparently made for management review and design approval by mint & treasury officials. Some were kept as souvenirs, then later found their way to collectors.

    The 1922 medium relief design is known only from a single circulation strike coin – one of 3,200 made then destroyed.

    Photos and detailed descriptions can be found in the book Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921. Similar information will also be in the Guide to Peace dollars 1921-1964 planned for release late this fall.

  • Because of the controversy surrounding SATIN proof peace dollars, PCGS has and will not slab one. Thye still have not slabbed a MATTE proof either, for reasons which I do not know - a matte proof, sandblast is blatently obvious as a proof stiking, not a circulation strike.

    At Heritage Signature auction #328, Lot 9054 in July 23rd, 2003, what I think the nicest Matte proof with sand-blast sold - It is theeee most incredible thing to see in your hand. 1922 High Relief, PR67 NGC. I had a chance to buy it for $250,000 and to this day am upset I did not get it. Haven't seen it since...

    There are high relief 1922's that could still be in someone's home. A few more were found in the past 6 years.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,188 ✭✭✭
    Awesome:

    imageimage
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,153
    A satin proof Peace dollar looks just like a sandblast one, only slightly sharper due to the absence of surface alteration from being sandblasted. Both versions start out as coins struck from new dies on a medal press, and both share the same production characteristics.

    The difficulty with 1921 satin proofs is that the same dies were also used for early circulation strikes and share the same die characteristics. Since early Peace dollars were intentionally struck at greater than normal pressure, they look much nicer than most production coins, and share the same smooth, non-lustrous fields, as satin proofs. (The extra pressure caused rapid die failure - usually shattering - so on the first day of production a pair of dies did not last very long.)

    The authentication services differ on several coins as to how they designate them and whether they will accept them for certification.
  • stephunterstephunter Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭
    I like these.
  • curlycurly Posts: 2,930


    << <i>Are these attainable coins or are they just impossible to get...

    Jason >>



    Believe me brother, everything is for sale. image
    Every man is a self made man.
  • PCGS has at least one certified matte proof but no satin proofs. I own what looks like a 1921 satin proof PCGS MS63 with a letter from Walter Breen certifying without a doubt that the coins is indeed a satin proof. NGC has certified a few satin proofs.

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ovgjr said:
    PCGS has at least one certified matte proof but no satin proofs. I own what looks like a 1921 satin proof PCGS MS63 with a letter from Walter Breen certifying without a doubt that the coins is indeed a satin proof. NGC has certified a few satin proofs.

    Can you provided the cert number? Is it available as a TrueView?

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ovgjr said:
    PCGS has at least one certified matte proof but no satin proofs. I own what looks like a 1921 satin proof PCGS MS63 with a letter from Walter Breen certifying without a doubt that the coins is indeed a satin proof. NGC has certified a few satin proofs.

    ...Cool first post...now show that baby off ;)

    Erik
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ovgjr said:
    PCGS has at least one certified matte proof but no satin proofs. I own what looks like a 1921 satin proof PCGS MS63 with a letter from Walter Breen certifying without a doubt that the coins is indeed a satin proof. NGC has certified a few satin proofs.

    You can post it next to Walters claimed SLQ

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Neat Coin.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • Thanks for the comments guys. Actually I just bought the 1921 Peace dollar (possible satin proof) 2 days ago at the Dallas Heritage Auction. Anyone can see it by going to Heritage and searching for https://coins.ha.com/c/auction-home.zx?saleNo=1261&ic=breadcrumb-coins-121913-interior lot 17561. I don’t have the coin in hand yet as it should be delivered in about a week. The Heritage site won’t let me copy the hi res image with my iPad. Upon close inspection you can see all the die polish marks of the satin proof dies. Of courses this alone means nothing as the proof dies were extensively used for business strikes. The strike on the coin is exceptional and the lettering is quite raised. Overall the coin is very well struck for a 1921. The hair is almost complete. The strike is better than some coins I’ve seen on slabbed labeled proofs. If you do a search on the Heritage archives you will see satin and matte proofs labeled and quite a few unlabeled but listed as possible proofs. I fully understand that getting NGC to certify this piece as a satin proof will be almost impossible. Walter Breen was very sure that this coin and a few others were indeed proofs. All comments are welcomed. Thanks.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 9:42AM

    Compare the auctioned coin "I-B and rays" (top) with another specimen (bottom).

    At minimum a medal press proof (satin or sandblast) should have the bottom photo's detail throughout, plus full lettering, etc. There are other threads with more extensive comments and images. [Letters on the bottom image appear thinner because they rise higher above the field and we see the trapezoidal letter profile better. It is the same for rays, etc. This is a result of greater and more evenly applied pressure from a medal press than a production toggle press.]

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭✭

    Thought I recalled something about Breen disavowing his own letters certifying 1921 Proof Peace dollars. Anyone else remember something about that?

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • WmwoodWmwood Posts: 102 ✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 9:09PM

    I found this 2014 article a couple of days ago about some pieces PCGS graded from Mint Director Baker´s estate.

    http://numismatica.com/tag/peace-dollars/

    Below from the article
    Contains photos of
    1921 $1 PCGS SP64. A discovery coin that has a normal High Relief design, but with a sandblasted and antiqued finish.
    1922 $1 PCGS PR67. Modified High Relief (Judd-2020). Satin (or “Bright”) finish. A total of 3,200 production trial examples were struck, but only a few were not subsequently destroyed. This surviving example is believed to be one of the first made and produced on a Mint press used to strike medals to bring up the Peace dollar design details.
    1922 $1 PCGS MS65. Modified High Relief (J-2020, same die pair as the preceding coin). It has the number “3200” inked in the left obverse field indicating it was the last coin struck from the production run of 3,200 before the obverse die failed. It was struck on a normal production press.
    1922 $1 PCGS MS67. Low Relief (Early hub dies, as adopted, but with the B1 reverse). It was pulled from production when the press indicator reached 140,000 coins struck.
    1922 $1 PCGS MS67. A second Low Relief, early hub dies example, pulled from production at the same time as the preceding coin.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1922 pieces come in High Relief (rev as in 1921); High Relief new obv/rev; Medium Relief new obv and HR 1922 rev; and Low Relief of completely new models. Both proof (medal press) and toggle press versions are known for all except the 1922-rev 1921.

    The 2014 article is somewhat confusing because it omits certain details.

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