Ryan Howard: The new Dave Kingman....
BobaFett72
Posts: 7,304
in Sports Talk
is this more appropriate?
discuss!
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Sincerely,
Obi Wan Kenobi
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<< <i>Ryan Howard will end up being another David Ortiz, aka Mo Vaughn. Prince Fielder Jr will end up being another.....Prince Fielder! >>
I think of all the players above, Prince Fielder will have the best over all career. He can hit homeruns, RBIs, strikes out a lot less and has a better batting average. I also think he should be smart about keeping the weight under control so he can stick around longer.
Just my two cents though.
mathew
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
Ryan Howard has gotten many clutch hits, and there will be many more to come.
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<< <i>Dave Kingman also played for a better organization. >>
Dave Kingman never played for the Phillies.
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<< <i>because every time his team was in a close game , I could always count on that stiff to strike out. LOL >>
Are you referring to Ryan Howard or Dave Kingman. I'm a little confused HAHAHA
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<< <i>
<< <i>because every time his team was in a close game , I could always count on that stiff to strike out. LOL >>
Are you referring to Ryan Howard or Dave Kingman. I'm a little confused HAHAHA >>
If you recall, Howard carried the Phillies in some stretches last season...the only thing I remember Dave Kingman carrying his team to was the dumpster. LOL
I'm not saying Kingman was better but his highest total ever posted was 156 k's in 1982.
Howard has a much better chance of becoming the strikeout king rather than the home run king LOL
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Career Leaders & Records for Strikeouts
Baseball Leaders & Baseball Records: Single-Season Career Active Progressive Yearly League
+ - Indicates Hall of Famer. Bold indicates active player.
Rank Player (age) Strikeouts Bats
1. Reggie Jackson+ 2597 L
2. Sammy Sosa 2306 R
3. Jim Thome (38) 2230 L
4. Andres Galarraga 2003 R
5. Jose Canseco 1942 R
6. Willie Stargell+ 1936 L
7. Mike Schmidt+ 1883 R
8. Fred McGriff 1882 L
9. Tony Perez+ 1867 R
10. Dave Kingman 1816 R
11. Bobby Bonds 1757 R
12. Craig Biggio 1753 R
13. Dale Murphy 1748 R
14. Carlos Delgado (37) 1745 L
15. Lou Brock+ 1730 L
16. Mickey Mantle+ 1710 B
17. Ken Griffey (39) 1704 L
18. Harmon Killebrew+ 1699 R
19. Chili Davis 1698 B
20. Dwight Evans 1697 R
21. Rickey Henderson 1694 R
22. Dave Winfield+ 1686 R
23. Manny Ramirez (37) 1684 R
24. Mike Cameron (36) 1675 R
25. Jim Edmonds (39) 1669 L
26. Alex Rodriguez (33) 1652 R
27. Reggie Sanders 1614 R
28. Gary Gaetti 1602 R
29. Mark McGwire 1596 R
30. Lee May 1570 R
31. Jeff Bagwell 1558 R
32. Dick Allen 1556 R
33. Ray Lankford 1550 L
Willie McCovey+ 1550 L
35. Barry Bonds 1539 L
36. Dave Parker 1537 L
37. Frank Robinson+ 1532 R
38. Lance Parrish 1527 R
39. Willie Mays+ 1526 R
Devon White 1526 B
41. Jeff Kent 1522 R
42. Eddie Murray+ 1516 B
43. Rick Monday 1513 L
Greg Vaughn 1513 R
45. Andre Dawson 1509 R
46. Tony Phillips 1499 B
47. Greg Luzinski 1495 R
48. Eddie Mathews+ 1487 L
49. Andruw Jones (32) 1485 R
50. Frank Howard 1460 R
Rank Player (age) Strikeouts Bats
51. Jay Bell 1443 R
52. Juan Samuel 1442 R
53. Harold Baines 1441 L
Jack Clark 1441 R
55. Mo Vaughn 1429 L
56. Jimmy Wynn 1427 R
57. Jim Rice 1423 R
58. Bobby Abreu (35) 1422 L
59. George Foster 1419 R
60. George Scott 1418 R
61. Royce Clayton 1415 R
62. Ron Gant 1411 R
63. Darrell Evans 1410 L
64. Rob Deer 1409 R
65. Jay Buhner 1406 R
66. Derek Jeter (35) 1402 R
67. Eric Davis 1398 R
68. Frank Thomas 1397 R
69. Carl Yastrzemski+ 1393 L
70. Jose Hernandez 1391 R
71. Joe Carter 1387 R
72. Carlton Fisk+ 1386 R
73. Hank Aaron+ 1383 R
74. Jeromy Burnitz 1376 L
75. Travis Fryman 1369 R
76. Matt Williams 1363 R
77. Danny Tartabull 1362 R
78. Tim Salmon 1360 R
79. Larry Parrish 1359 R
80. Darryl Strawberry 1352 L
81. Robin Yount+ 1350 R
82. Rafael Palmeiro 1348 L
83. Ron Santo 1343 R
84. Julio Franco 1341 R
85. Ellis Burks 1340 R
86. Gorman Thomas 1339 R
87. Jason Giambi (38) 1337 L
88. Dean Palmer 1332 R
89. Babe Ruth+ 1330 L
90. Ivan Rodriguez (37) 1320 R
91. Deron Johnson 1318 R
92. Cecil Fielder 1316 R
93. Shawn Green 1315 L
94. Willie Horton 1313 R
Richie Sexson (34) 1313 R
96. Jimmie Foxx+ 1311 R
97. Mickey Tettleton 1307 B
Tim Wallach 1307 R
99. Cal Ripken+ 1305 R
100. Adam Dunn (29) 1304 L
Those who understand the game of baseball and what it takes to win championships, like the sportwriters who voted Howard second place in the MVP last season and MVP previous to that, understand all this. Guys like Hoopster who live in a world of stats, and can't see the forest for the trees, don't understand that.
I guess that is probably why you lost your shirt gambling. Luckily for me, there were enough of your 'feeling' type guys where taking your money was pretty easy.
Dave Kingman hit 305 Home RUns when the margin of the score was within two runs.
Dave Kingman hit 44 Home RUns when the margin of the score was greater than four.
Like most players, he has a typical spread of when he hit his home runs. Some guys may have a stretch where they hit more in blow outs etc..., but that tends to even out the more years they play.
But anyway, I don't know what your definition of "many" is, but it is pretty clear that he wasn't hitting meaningless home runs at a rate that you 'believe'. Of those 44 home runs, there were probably a few that occurred in a ten run lead. Does a few equal many?
The main reason Kingman had a lot of teams probably stems from him being a jerk more than anything else.
<< <i>SteveK, I live in the world of reality, logic, and what actually occurred...not some fantasy world where your feelings are what drives an evaluation, and where misinformation is the driving force of your argument.
I guess that is probably why you lost your shirt gambling. Luckily for me, there were enough of your 'feeling' type guys where taking your money was pretty easy. >>
Gambling businesses took my money, not individuals - we've discussed this before...stop sniffing glue...it's interfering with your memory.
What you should probably do is read that statistics book you talked about before, because it looks like you did not comprehend
it too well.
<< <i>SteveK, FYI,
Dave Kingman hit 305 Home RUns when the margin of the score was within two runs.
Dave Kingman hit 44 Home RUns when the margin of the score was greater than four.
Like most players, he has a typical spread of when he hit his home runs. Some guys may have a stretch where they hit more in blow outs etc..., but that tends to even out the more years they play.
But anyway, I don't know what your definition of "many" is, but it is pretty clear that he wasn't hitting meaningless home runs at a rate that you 'believe'. Of those 44 home runs, there were probably a few that occurred in a ten run lead. Does a few equal many?
The main reason Kingman had a lot of teams probably stems from him being a jerk more than anything else. >>
"In his 16-season career, Dave Kingman batted .236, with 442 home runs."
Let me tell ya something genius - no team, unless losing them because they can't afford them, trades a clutch power hitter, doesn't matter how ornery he is. Sometime read a book on what it takes to win baseball games and championships...it's about playing the game the right way, and not swinging for the fences all the time. I'm not sure how old you are but likely you never saw Dave Kingman play.
Also - I'd like to see a link to where you got those home run stats about Kingman.
To answer your question, hitters who EFFICIENTLY get the most BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, and HR; with items on the right side being the most advantageous, are your best hitters. If done in timely situations, their win value gets a small bump. Can you explain what I mean by efficiently? If they can play defense and RUN, they are even more preferred...which eliminates Howard.
Overall, Kingman was merely average, so a jack arse who is average will most indeed be moved often. Howard is merely above average when you account for defense, but he is a good guy. By the end of his career, he will have put up more Kingman like years, as he transforms into him.
What does it take to win a championship? Lots of very good and excellent players and good luck.
By the way, I was watching Kingman hitting those Home Runs across Waveland...even one three houses down!
Kingman actually was at his WORST overall when the score margin was >4 runs!!
Here is a link that shows his HR breakdown....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=kingmda01&year=Career&t=b
Here is a link that shows you some research items...stuff you can learn from.....
http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/Research.htm
<< <i>First and foremost, those HR theories you had about Kingman were so far from the truth, that it just exemplifies why you are wrong all the time...perception and memory are poor methods of evaluation.
To answer your question, hitters who EFFICIENTLY get the most BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, and HR; with items on the right side being the most advantageous, are your best hitters. If done in timely situations, their win value gets a small bump. Can you explain what I mean by efficiently? If they can play defense and RUN, they are even more preferred...which eliminates Howard.
Overall, Kingman was merely average, so a jack arse who is average will most indeed be moved often. Howard is merely above average when you account for defense, but he is a good guy. By the end of his career, he will have put up more Kingman like years, as he transforms into him.
What does it take to win a championship? Lots of very good and excellent players and good luck.
By the way, I was watching Kingman hitting those Home Runs across Waveland...even one three houses down!
Kingman actually was at his WORST overall when the score margin was >4 runs!!
Here is a link that shows his HR breakdown....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=kingmda01&year=Career&t=b
Here is a link that shows you some research items...stuff you can learn from.....
http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/Research.htm >>
You may be the biggest dope on this board. For all those stats you posted, I could post dozens of others from that website, showing how Kingman is a stiff. You remind me of the jackass former CEO of GM who around 6 months ago was proclaiming that GM wasn't in that bad a shape and he pointed out some statistics. Of course one stat he failed to mention was the billions of dollars in shareholder value that evaporated.
Kingman was a stiff and every GM at that time knows it - they signed him hoping he'd somehow have a better season, or perhaps as a drawing card, and admittedly it was entertaining watching him bat. Where your stat analysis is so totally f*ed, just like the CEO of GM who was rightfully dismissed and it shoulda happened years earlier, is because it shows the home runs "he hit" - it doesn't show the home runs he didn't hit. Understand that genius? I could bat in say 1,000 MLB games and hit a few HR's with say a one run variance - that doesn't make me a clutch hitter which is my total point. I admit, the stats look better than I thought with Kingman's home run variance, and perhaps that stat variance is around an average for all home runs, but that doesn't mean I'm incorrect because I'm not incorrect with my basic premise - the bottom line is that Dave Kingman was a stone cold stiff as a batter - a powerful stiff yes, but a stiff nevertheless. But arguing with you is like arguing with a wall - you just look at strictly quantitative factors, ignoring the qualitative factors, which is why if someday if you ever become a CEO of a company, you'll likely run it into the ground.
Dave Kingman was only an average player. Who said otherwise? Howard is on that same path, LOL!
The only thing I posted in regard to Kingman was the facts to combat your flawed perception. You said he only hit when the game was won already. Obviously you were way wrong. He basically hit as well when the game was within one run, two runs, three runs, four runs...and when the game was out of hand...completely showing what you believed to be false, thus showing that relying on perception(especially yours) is going to give you the wrong answer.
This was posted because you don't like the actual truth, but would rather live in la la land because of some lack of self confidence...thus the need to ignore the truths on your hero Ryan Howard. I know you need him, but come on already.
Nobody is proclaiming Kingman a clutch hitter you fool. His home run spread is in line with what would be expected by MLB hitters.
The person I would be concerned about with being in charge of something financially is you...LOL. How much did you lose again? I could buy your collection, and then just give it away LOL! Do you live in Rocky's old neighborhood?
<< <i>SteveK,
Dave Kingman was only an average player. Who said otherwise? Howard is on that same path, LOL!
The only thing I posted in regard to Kingman was the facts to combat your flawed perception. You said he only hit when the game was won already. Obviously you were way wrong. He basically hit as well when the game was within one run, two runs, three runs, four runs...and when the game was out of hand...completely showing what you believed to be false, thus showing that relying on perception(especially yours) is going to give you the wrong answer.
This was posted because you don't like the actual truth, but would rather live in la la land because of some lack of self confidence...thus the need to ignore the truths on your hero Ryan Howard. I know you need him, but come on already.
Nobody is proclaiming Kingman a clutch hitter you fool. His home run spread is in line with what would be expected by MLB hitters.
The person I would be concerned about with being in charge of something financially is you...LOL. How much did you lose again? I could buy your collection, and then just give it away LOL! Do you live in Rocky's old neighborhood? >>
Geez man - you know I'm just bustin' chops in fun, but come on now, ya gotta understand that sports talk is a lot of hyperbole - that's a given in sports talk almost anywhere and certainly here. I admitted, the stats were better than I thought they'd be but it still doesn't diminish the fact that I saw Dave Kingman bat many, many, many times, and it wasn't any perception that he wasn't a clutch hitter, it was a fact...which is why I've stated numerous times that Hall of Fame voters should only be allowed to vote if they saw the player play - stats can and sometimes do distort the real value a player has to his team.
In fact, by you using your memory or perception, you yourself are quantifying his ability...only it just isn't as accurate as what the play by play says. This Kingman thing is a perfect example.
The only thing stats don't show are things as leadership.
<< <i>SteveK, stats do not distort the players on field performance at all in BASEBALL HITTING. They may in football or basketball, but not baseball.
In fact, by you using your memory or perception, you yourself are quantifying his ability...only it just isn't as accurate as what the play by play says. This Kingman thing is a perfect example.
The only thing stats don't show are things as leadership. >>
What? Did you just get off the boat? You're not familiar with bunts, sacrifice flys, sacrificing oneself to move the runner over, hit and run, and other batting nuances of the game which helps teams win...I'm not saying Kingman never did any of that, but I sure don't remember him doing hardly any of that. Perhaps the coaches figured he wasn't any good at it so they let him hit away...but to proclaim that "stats do not distort the players on field performance at all in BASEBALL HITTING" is preposterous.
This debate is providing me many laughs.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
His AVG, OB%, and SLG% have declined steadily since his big year.
These people wishing for a HOF career better not stake their emotional being on it...because it simply is not going to happen.
<< <i>Howard isn't Kingman, but he is entering the on ramp to the Dave Kingman highway.
His AVG, OB%, and SLG% have declined steadily since his big year.
These people wishing for a HOF career better not stake their emotional being on it...because it simply is not going to happen. >>
Dude is well on his way to the hall. Your comments are just plain foolish right now!
JS
<< <i>The main reason Kingman had a lot of teams probably stems from him being a jerk more than anything else. >>
IS YOUSE TAWKIN ABOUT ME?
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Howard isn't Kingman, but he is entering the on ramp to the Dave Kingman highway.
His AVG, OB%, and SLG% have declined steadily since his big year.
These people wishing for a HOF career better not stake their emotional being on it...because it simply is not going to happen. >>
Hoopster - I know you know your stats and that's fine...but these comments of yours are way off the wall even more so than the worst callins at WIP. You yap as if the MVP award is almost meaningless which is absurd and the more you post about this, the more foolish you look. Howard finished a clear second for the MVP just last season, and in my opinion should have won it, and yes he had that monster MVP year, but from your "declined steadily" comment, you make it sound as though he's almost ready to go back to AAA ball. If going from an MVP to a second choice MVP is your version of "declining steadily" then not only do you need to learn more about the nuances of the game of baseball and what it takes to win championships, because it's not even debatable that Howard carried the team for some stretches last season, you also need grammar lessons.
He has declined steadily. It looks like the MVP year was a blip. The high RBI totals mask his decline, I went over that before. It matters none what the writers voted, they are morons. I need some grammar lessons, and you need baseball lessons...so we can call it even there.
<< <i>SteveK,
He has declined steadily. It looks like the MVP year was a blip. The high RBI totals mask his decline, I went over that before. It matters none what the writers voted, they are morons. I need some grammar lessons, and you need baseball lessons...so we can call it even there. >>
48 HR's 146 RBI's......in decline?? LMAO 99.9% of the league would love for that kind of decline, seriously Hoop, put down the glue and get some fresh air!
JS
In fact, I believe the city of Philadelphia is planning a parade to commemorate the event.
Congrats!!!!
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<< <i>Howard only struck-out once last night so Phillie fan should be really happy.
In fact, I believe the city of Philadelphia is planning a parade to commemorate the event.
Congrats!!!! >>
What would Met fan know about parades?
Sincerely,
Howard 53K's 12 HR
Wright 46K's 3 HR
<< <i>
<< <i>Howard only struck-out once last night so Phillie fan should be really happy.
In fact, I believe the city of Philadelphia is planning a parade to commemorate the event.
Congrats!!!! >>
What would Met fan know about parades? >>
Umm I would guess as much as Phillie fan does.
You are pretty clueless aren't you???LOL
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<< <i>SteveK,
He has declined steadily. It looks like the MVP year was a blip. The high RBI totals mask his decline, I went over that before. It matters none what the writers voted, they are morons. I need some grammar lessons, and you need baseball lessons...so we can call it even there. >>
You must be a hard guy to please...if you dated Maria Sharapova you'd probably find something about her to call her ugly? LOL
You might be the only person on earth who would categorize a clear second choice MVP as a player who is "declining steadily" LOL
I'd advise you to drop this point - you're just looking really, really silly.
His performance is measured in AVG/OB%/SLG%, while RBI are a measure of his performance AND his teammates performance. When isolating what a player will do in the future, or giving credit for what he has done, you count the items in his control, and not that of the teammates.
Of course, that stupid talk show would not understand that, just like you guys don't.
He may continue to have a lot of RBI if the Phillies continue to have a good lineup. But if either the RBI opps drop to normal, or if his men on base hitting reverts to normalcy, you will see a drop in RBI because his batting average and SLG% have decreased, and continue to do so.
Understand children?
<< <i>The RBI are enhanced due to a good lineup. They were enhanced even more because he hit very well with men on base in some years...a pace that he is not going to sustain.
His performance is measured in AVG/OB%/SLG%, while RBI are a measure of his performance AND his teammates performance. When isolating what a player will do in the future, or giving credit for what he has done, you count the items in his control, and not that of the teammates.
Of course, that stupid talk show would not understand that, just like you guys don't.
He may continue to have a lot of RBI if the Phillies continue to have a good lineup. But if either the RBI opps drop to normal, or if his men on base hitting reverts to normalcy, you will see a drop in RBI because his batting average and SLG% have decreased, and continue to do so.
Understand children? >>
Ryan Howard has not "declined steadily" - You are suffering from "paralysis by analysis" with your infatuation with stats, and not properly seeing the overall picture.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Howard only struck-out once last night so Phillie fan should be really happy.
In fact, I believe the city of Philadelphia is planning a parade to commemorate the event.
Congrats!!!! >>
What would Met fan know about parades? >>
Umm I would guess as much as Phillie fan does.
You are pretty clueless aren't you???LOL >>
Met fan needs to stop talking about things they nothing about like Championships, parades, and home runs, and more about things they know about like
choaking away division titles, laying down and crying to forum mods!
JS
Go have yourself some grape juice and play some Mario Brothers. That should make you feel better
Once again, I'm sorry you happened to you
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Of course he's gonna say that Carol alerted him about it and was wondering if he would like it locked.
Because we all know that Carol lives to please the non paying PSA resident troll on her message board :eyeroll:
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In short Lil' Kevie is a whining hypocrite with ZERO integrity or class.
<< <i>Anyone else catch whats going on? Its easy- Stalin accuses other people of crying to carol when in fact it is he that does the weeping. The same can be applied to him calling out another poster for welching even though he does the same thing.
In short Lil' Kevie is a whining hypocrite with ZERO integrity or class. >>
Thats just what compulsive liars and welchers do. "Mario being Mario"
You took a beating in gambling, and consider this a public service message...don't go investing in anything into Howard thinking he is going to end up as an all-time great, as you will just lose more money. If you go into it thinking slightly better than Kingman(because Howard has better teammates), then you won't be dissapointed financially, or emotionally.
If you do not understand why the number of RBI opportunties has a big impact on Howard's artificially inflated RBI totals, then I suggest we do that free throw contest. I get 20 free throws, you get 10; whoever gets the most free throws wins. Are you game?