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RE: the 1998-S SMS Kennedy. Who's right? PCGS or NGC?

braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
in PCGS Set Registry Forum
PCGS states this is a MintState coin and includes it in their Mint State Kennedy Registry.
NGC claims it is a proof coin and only allows it in their Proof Kennedy Registry.
ANACS states 'Specimen' and PCI is all over the board (some of their inserts state, "MS". Others state "PR").
What is this coin closest to in your opinion?

peacockcoins

Comments

  • andy007andy007 Posts: 475 ✭
    These coins received special treatment and preparation, therefore, I feel it should be part of the Proof set.
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323 ✭
    PCGS is right, at least until NGC finds a Cameo example. image
    imageLibertarian Party
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    The coin was never intended to circulate, so it belongs in the proof set.
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323 ✭
    Ok, seriously, that's a tough one...

    I would agree with Andy that the 1965-67 SMS coins more appropriately belong as part of the proof set. In fact, they were issued as replacements for proof sets for those years. The coins also have many proof-like characteristics.

    The 1998-S SMS is an oddball, more like a modern commem really. But, it doesn't look anything like a Kennedy proof, and there is a 1998-S Silver Proof Kennedy already.

    So, I'd put it in the MS category. Along with the 1976-S Kennedy, which was also specially prepared and on a different metal than normal Kennedys.
    imageLibertarian Party
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323 ✭
    gmarguli, that criteria alone doesn't work well. For example 1970-D Kennedies, 1973-PD Ikes, 1981-PDS SBA dollars. These coins were produced in the same way as circulating coins, but issued only in mint sets.
    imageLibertarian Party
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    Circulation strike coins = MS set.

    Non-circulation strike coins (proof, SMS, matte proof, etc) = Proof (non-circulation strike) set.
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    I'd like to add that it shouldn't matter how the coin was distributed. If it was struck in the same manner as normal coins intended for circulation, the it is an MS coin. If it was struck intentionally different, the it belongs in the other (PF) set.
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323 ✭
    So where do 1976-S 40% Silver MS Kennedys go? Ditto the Ike and quarter from that set. How about 1971-S to 74-S MS Ikes?

    Oops, not MS, I mean the ones that aren't shiny, that came in mylar packs instead of hard plastic packs.

    Aaagh!! See what you're doing? You're upsetting the natural order of the universe. image
    imageLibertarian Party
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    What can I say, I'm an anarchist!

    The 1976-S "mylar" coins are clearly MS. Even though they weren't intended to actually circulate, they were struck in the same manner as the clad circulating coins - just a different base metal. The SMS coins were treated differently than business strikes in the way they were struck.

    Basically anything treated differently during the striking process (not base metal used) than a normal business strike should go in the proof set.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greg- You may be on to something, but please answer this: What is the difference in the minting technic of the 1976-S 40% Kennedies/quarters/Ikes, and the 1998-S Kennedy? They appear the same other than the Kennedy is easier to find in high grade. Plus, Tad makes a good point. There is already a 1998-S Proof Kennedy minted.

    peacockcoins

  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    Hey Guys, isn't the 98 matte proof half like the matte proof Peace dollar? Special finishes from specially prepared dies are proofs right (including the 65-67 halves)? But what does burnishing do to that theory? Mint+ maybe.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • redhottredhott Posts: 175
    Uh-Oh... As I recall, the Mint said the coins in the 1999 Uncirculated Coin Set received both special treatment and preparation, as well as extra striking pressure. Would that mean...
    redhott
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where do the early Lincoln Matte struck coins go? And the Matte Buffalo nickels. Are these in the proof sets or the business strike sets? Isn't the 1998 Kennedy struck the same way?
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • BcsicanBcsican Posts: 1,068
    I have to agree with Greg it belongs in the proof set, but under the conditions of the minting of the coin I would put it in both sets...
    BCSICAN

    "Because I can"

    myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
  • cosmicdebriscosmicdebris Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
    It is a commemorative coin. I would say SMS it is not a proof coin.
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • halfnuthalfnut Posts: 1,619
    I don't have an clue were it belongs but I need one imageimageimageimageimageimage
    U S Navy Retired 22 years - ENC(SW) Ret. - Travling Nuclear Maintanence Contractor - Working Indian Point Nuclear plant Buchanan New York
    image

    ">Franklin Halves
    ">Kennedy Halves
  • VatsolVatsol Posts: 2
    If NGC places it in the proof category why do I have one graded by NGC that reads: "1998 S SILVER 50C SPECIMEN MS69" coin # is 2000323-001. Unless this was graded early and they have since changed their minds. BOB
  • cosmicdebriscosmicdebris Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
    Again this coin was a special commemorative it has the same finish as other uncirculated commemorative coins that the US Mint puts out. The Mint calls these coins uncirculated.
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • keithdagenkeithdagen Posts: 2,025 ✭
    This coin is a Mint State coin, and was struck in that manner. The Mint used a higher pressure to strike the coins and made sure that the planchets were in better condition, just like it would a modern comme, but the surfaces of the coin themselves are no different from the 1976 Silver uncirculated pieces.

    Keith
    Keith ™

  • robbnscrobbnsc Posts: 83
    Vatsol:
    It appears that NGC had a change of mind on the '98 Kennedy. They are listing it on the Kennedy Proof Registry, which by definition makes it a proof as far as NGC is concerned. Personally, looking at my specimen, I would call it a business strike.
    I have never seen a Peace Dollar that I did not like!!
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NGC never had a change of mind. They have ALWAYS labeled the insert, "Specimen" and have ALWAYS placed this coin in the proof register catagory. That's the paradox.

    peacockcoins

  • andy007andy007 Posts: 475 ✭
    redhott,

    The mint may have stated and gave the 1999 Uncirculated set special treatment, but the major factor that you are leaving out is that the 1998 Kennedy matte finish coin was never intended for circulation and was not just a business strike piece specially treated. It was created on a silver planchet specifically for the commerative set along with the RFK dollar and is dubbed a Special Mint Set. The 1999 Uncirculated set did not start out with silver planchets for the quarters, dime, or half, it is just a regular business strike coin that may have received special treatment(although this is the first I have heard of that)and was issued as just another Uncirculated set of business strikes in its long history of doing so, with no intentions of being a Special Mint Set.

    Uh Oh
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323 ✭
    andy007, would your definition mean that the 1976-S 40% silver uncirculated Kennedy is a proof too?

    Look, it's an MS coin because:

    1. PCGS says so, and they're always right.
    2. Everyone knows modern proofs are supposed to be nice shiny reflective things. If you want matte proofs, go collect those weird early Lincolns or something.

    That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. image
    imageLibertarian Party
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