Q.W. Bowers and Matte Proof Lincolns

pennyannie

I picked up a copy of "a guide book to Lincoln cents" written By Q.W. Bowers the other day. I have been looking thru it and reading some interesting stuff. Some of the Excepts-
1.He claims he has never seen a fully brilliant ORIGINAL matte proof Lincolncent, and probably no such thing exist. page 70
2. In the 1960's MPL were hot. page 70
3. In 1954 and 1955 he bought large quanities of MPL's from a dealer in Union city New Jersey (in original tissue paper) page 69
4. A dealer probably named Henry Chapman had more than 1000 MPL's in stock. DAM!!!!! pg. 69
5. Steward Blay gets mention in the book for having some of his coins pictured. Does anyone know what the page numbers are?
6. The new York Times August 6th 1909 wrote a short story on Lincoln cents being Lucky pg. 23

I have read most of this book and still no answers to any of the questions from the other MPL thread. I did find the book very intersting. But i came away with the impression any MPL in RD has been DIPPED OR CLEANED.

People like QWB have seen and owned coins that i will never hope to own or hold.

ambro51

q "D" b



I like the story how he threw out a bunch of them with the wrappings of a package he was shipped other mattes in.


Bets thats where the VDB's went!

EagleEye

I think many of the toned MPL's came from the same hoard that the toned Indian proofs did. The Proskey hoard.

Proskey has some, A.M. Smith had some, Wayte Raymond had some (these are referenced in Abe Kosoff Remembers as well as Breen) and from QDB's notes, Chapman too. These had mostly begun to be distributed in the late 1930's. The market was flooded with them (Indians and MPL's) through the 1950's. I think QDB is mentions that they were "hot" because the were heavilly marketed in the 1950's.

As to QDB's cleaned remark, yes, full red gems are very hard to find. You have to open a properly stored set like the Jenks set to find these pearls. I think he should have left a little bit of leeway open for the ones that exist, like saying "less than 1% are full red", which I think is more true.

pennyannie

EagleEye- All of the proofs that were sold in the 50's and 60's how many have survived in great shape? How many do you think got cleaned and doctored? Percent wise? I am sure you see a lot of nasty proof indians from time to time. I would think cents, nickels, dimes and quarter proofs have had a rougher life than silver halves, dollars and gold proofs.

How much is that set of proofs worth on your site that is going to be displayed at ?? show? What did it cost to put together? Maybe that is taboo to ask but just wondering. I have not been in coins long enough to have been able to buy low and hold for decades. Man i wish i had started earilier in collecting.

EagleEye

I try not to look too long at the problem pieces. If you look at original sets, the silver is nice with some toning, the nickels are usually very nice and bright and the cents are dark. They just don't survive in full red in their original tissue for extended periods.

The Proskey coins were in their tissue undisturbed for 50 years! Luckily they were in people's hands who knew not to clean them.

I have the prices these sell for here:

Click on Proof Values

Frankcoins

Many of these were probably dipped in cyanide before 1950 to freshen the surfaces, and the matte finish
would not have been obviously affected like a brilliant proof would have been.

EagleEye

cyanide? Where did you get that info, Frank?

pennyannie

Rick- It is in the book mentioned here. One dealer even stated that his coins were cynide free. lol.

Frankcoins

<< <i>cyanide? Where did you get that info, Frank? >>




Rick, I can't belive you hadn't heard about that practice...

See page 5 of this guide

http://www.ncscoin.com/pdfs/conservation_guide.pdf

EagleEye

The NCS link (thanks for posting) is referring to Sanford Saltus who accidentally drank cyanide instead of water while cleaning coins. Ouch! It says nothing about cleaning copper with cyanide. I believe ol’ Sanford was stripping silver toning, not copper.

In the Lincoln Book, Bowers references David Lang who says that "A majority of Matte proof Lincolns have been cleaned at one time". He doesn't say cleaned with cyanide. Also he defines what he calls cleaning, from harsh and abrasive to ones that will certify. I have never seen a reference to cyanide use for copper. It's would probably melt the surface right off!

ambro51

Ive tried (experimented) with KCn on copper coins.....it give a lousy fake pink salmon look which in no way looks anything like mint luster. Works, but "dosent work"


Anyone who would peel off the beautiful toning on a MPL should be taken out and shot.

curly

Anyone who would peel off the beautiful toning on a MPL should be taken out and shot. >>




OUCH!!! brother..that's dedication!

jacktheknife

Cyanide is a very effective toning remover. As previously stated, the resulting appearance is anything but original.

Jack

pennyannie

Page 106/107 "A guide book to Lincoln Cents" by QWB

" Almost alone in the trade, The New Netherlands Coin Co often mentioned the use of cynide, in auction listings such as for its 51st Sale in june 1958. Lot 377 a red and brown 1909 s-vdb with a spot on the obverse and a fingerprint on the reverse, was accompanied by this comment: "More desirable than the cynanided examples commonly offered(as) "Brilliant Uncirculated""

EagleEye

Thanks for the reference. I missed the NN description.

streeter

I was glancing last night at an EMPIRE Coin Co catalog from 1961-2(bowers & ruddy et al.) and noticed 6 matte proofs listed. $46-115.

Represented about 30% of their Lincoln offering.